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CONLANG  February 2018, Week 1

CONLANG February 2018, Week 1

Subject:

Re: OT YAEPT: IPA, Canadian raising, STRUT

From:

"Mike S." <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 7 Feb 2018 15:43:18 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (132 lines)

More YAEPT ahead...

On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 6:19 AM, Raymond Brown <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
[snip]

> Yes, clearly a voice recording is the thing if one really wants to hear
> the way a speaker speaks.
>
> I was intending to imply that in practice most of us (or many of us)
> would be likely to fall between narrow and broad transcriptions with
> quite possibly conventional rather than actual (e.g. [ʌ] when our actual
> pronunciation is more central).  I suspect only trained phoneticians
> (and I'm certainly not one) would do it properly.
>

Yes, and even if we had transcriptions properly done by trained
phoneticians, they could only be fully digested by other trained
phoneticians--hence my jump to audio as a way of obviating the problem.


What an appromimate IPA representation of person's speech is more likely
> to accomplish IME is YAEPT  ( ¯ ö¯  )
>
> Without a doubt!

[snip]


> It most certainly is out here! Ask any of southerners and we'd probably
> says it's "oop north."  But that's an overgeneralization.  I suspect And
> could tell us more precisely where in the north this is still found.
>
> Many years ago I had a Lancastrian colleague who had managed the
> "southernize" her speech but, when she got excited, would relapse into
> her native Lancastrians and, e.g. _buns_ became [bʊnz].
>
> Ray
>

I like the accents I hear from northern England and Scotland, but
unfortunately the only times I usually get to hear them is such times as
when watching some actor shake an angry spear at [ˈpʰɛɾ.ʒənz].

 * * * * *

On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 7:45 PM, And Rosta <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> On 29 January 2018 at 01:05, Mike S. <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> > Here is my actual voice.
> >
> > https://vocaroo.com/i/s1RTRKJmgNgG
> >
> > I am curious as to what narrow IPA transcription the list thinks is most
> > accurate for my renditions of the words "cot" and "kite".  For the
> record I
> > am a middle aged southwestern New England native.
> >
>
> Wow, ace vowel in "kite" (also in "flew" (very [u]) and interesting final t
> too, all very flavourful). I listened to the recording before reading what
> it was you were actually saying, and was flummoxed for a good while. John
> slipped on a what? On a cut?? Or a cot? But why would you slip on a cut or
> a cot? Could it be a cart that John slipped on, this being New England and
> all? No, I then read the email message, and it's deffo "cot". Does "cot" in
> the US mean something that you can slip on?? And then the penny dropped:
> John *slept* on a cot. (Tho in contemporary Britain, John would surely be a
> baby and sleep *in* a cot.)
>
> Applying my 'no quality adjustment diacritics rule', my candidates for
> "cot" would be ɐ & ʌ. If I'd heard the word in isolation, I'd deffo hear it
> as "cut". For "kite" I'd plump for ɜɪ.
>
> For general interest's sake, I would have preferred a much longer clip. But
> for phonetic transcription purposes, the brevity of the clip is a blessing.
>

My attempt would have been

cot - /kat/ - [kʰät] ~ [kʰɑt]
kite - /kajt/ - [kʰɐɪ̯t]

I don't at all wish to quibble with your transcriptions, which are surely
more expert than mine.  The point I wanted to test was whether the first
part of my /aj/ diphthong was more closed than my /a/ vowel, or at least
somehow noticeably different in quality, which you seem to have confirmed.

As for the US meaning of "cot" I see that has already been explained.

As far as you hearing my "cot" as "cut", to me that helps confirm the
abiding transatlantic phonetic difference in wedge, regardless of details
or notation used.  Any confusion between "cot" and "cut" would generally
not happen between any two US regions that I know of, though maybe
familiarity has something to do with it.  Here in the USA, I almost never
notice the cot-caught merger in those Americans who have it (I lack it) at
all unless I consciously listen for it. (Though, weirdly to me, those who
have the merger sometimes regard my pronunciation of [ˈkʰɔ.fi
<http://xn--h-10a.fi>] and [gɔn] ("coffee" and "gone") as rather marked and
regional, sometimes causing people to mistakenly place me in NYC.)

 [snip]

>
> > Backed by actual recordings (including of Daniel Jones), the article
> shows
> > that the British STRUT vowel varies more than I thought it did, and that
> it
> > is indeed increasingly centralized, at least sporadically (and perhaps
> that
> > is the destination, closer to the American value).  But I will insist
> that
> > the British version is still more back and more open on average than the
> > American version, as my ears hear it and as the centers of the two
> > triangles would indicate.
> >
>
> It's more open but not always more back, as shown by the full range of
> recordings on Geoff Lindsey's page (the young Princess Elizabeth and the
> Essex speaker)..
>
> --And.
>


I was most struck by the Princess Elizabeth recording!  Very central STRUT
vowel, I thought, far from cardinal ʌ.  I think Geoff Lindsey amply shows
that the situation with the STRUT vowel in southern/southeastern Britain is
complicated and in flux.

-Mike

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