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CONLANG  February 2018, Week 2

CONLANG February 2018, Week 2

Subject:

Re: This and That

From:

Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 14 Feb 2018 08:21:42 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (111 lines)

On 14 February 2018 at 04:27, Michael Martin <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> I've since decided to go with marking definiteness on the nouns with a
> suffix.
>
> But another question that came to mind. Must nouns be inherently singular?
> Or could a language have it's nouns be inherently plural and require
> marking or an auxiliary word to make them singular?
>
>
Whenever a question like "is a specific linguistic feature universal?" is
asked, you'll quickly learn that the right answer in 99% of the cases is
"No" :). Among all the natlangs of the world, there is precious little that
is truly universal. And in this particular case, the answer is indeed, "no,
nouns don't have to be inherently singular".

The simple case is where nouns do not have *any* inherent number: nouns
don't have a specific mark for number, or that mark is optional and only
used in some cases, and the same form can be used for singular or plural
depending on context and the surrounding words. Japanese is an example. 花
(hana): "flower" in Japanese can mean "a flower", "the flower", "flowers"
or "the flowers" depending on context and other words in the sentence, but
the word itself is neither inherently singular nor inherently plural (and
neither inherently indefinite nor inherently definite either). By the way,
Japanese does have a plural suffix _-tachi_, but it's (mostly) only used
with nouns that refer to people, and its main meaning is that of a
distributive plural (i.e. "and company"). For instance, _Tanakatachi_ means
"Tanaka and their friends" or "Tanaka and their folks", or even "Tanaka and
their company" depending on context.

Closer to what you were thinking about, there are indeed languages where
(some) nouns are inherently plural and need a mark to make them singular.
Usually, nouns that are like that are said to have collective number, and
the singular form is called the singulative in this case. For instance, in
Welsh, the noun _plant_: "children" is inherently plural, and its
singulative is _plentyn_: "child". The collective form is really the more
basic one, and is used like an English mass noun basically, although it
refers to something that is countable. Singulatives are a feature of (among
others) Celtic and Semitic languages. I know Breton has it as well, as well
as Arabic for instance. You can easily find more information about it
online.

Finally, if you really want to go crazy, you can look at the weirdness that
is _inverse number_ (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_number#Inverse_number). In some
languages, nouns can have three numbers (usually singular, dual and
plural). But rather than any one of these numbers being standard for all
nouns, nouns are separated into classes based on which number is inherent
to them (or numbers!), and the same affix (called the inverse number affix)
is used to mark a non-inherent number, whatever the class of the noun! This
means that in these languages, you can have for instance nouns that are
inherently singular, nouns that are inherently plurals, and nouns that are
inherently plural and dual. The inherently singular nouns use the inverse
number affix to mark dual and plural, while the inherently plural nouns use
that same affix to mark singular and dual! As for the inherently plural and
dual nouns, they use the affix only to mark the singular! Just goes to show
how weird number marking can be! :)

Anyway, I hope that answers your question. Just remember whenever you ask a
question about language in the form of "must it happen this way?", the
answer will usually be "no, it doesn't have to" :).

Cheers,

Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
President of the Language Creation Society (http://conlang.org/)

Personal Website: http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
Personal Tumblr: http://christophoronomicon.tumblr.com/



>
> * Michael - [log in to unmask]
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
> Behalf Of taliesin the storyteller
> Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2018 12:48 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: This and That
>
> On 2018-02-02 06:40, Michael Martin wrote:
> > I was thinking about definite articles and I wondered if I could
> > actually replace "the" with the equivalent of "this" and "that" and so
> > on. So essentially instead of saying "the cat" you would have to say
> > "this cat" or "that cat". Is this something real languages do?
> > Is there anything I would need to be careful of or watch out for if I
> > went this route?
>
> How do you mark indefiniteness?
>
> If you mark indefiniteness, definite could be the default, and unmarked :)
>
> Haspelmaths's "Indefinite pronouns" is excellent to understand
> definiteness:
>
> (PDF, missing some figures)
>
> https://www.academia.edu/22872159/Indefinite_pronouns
>
>
> (Open-access, web-site)
>
> http://www.oxfordscholarship.com/view/10.1093/oso/
> 9780198235606.001.0001/oso-9780198235606
>
>
> t.
>

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