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CONLANG  February 2018, Week 2

CONLANG February 2018, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Bantu proper names

From:

Seth KAZAN <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 8 Feb 2018 17:23:18 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (152 lines)

In my search for a philosophical  apriori conlang where 1 sound = 1 sense =
1 sign, the sound/sign for the sense "man" can be seen as a class affix for
proper name...
In fact any sound/sign/sense is a class affix...
And there is near nothing but class affixes...

2018-02-08 17:20 GMT+01:00 Seth KAZAN <[log in to unmask]>:

> In my search for a philosophical  apriori conlang where 1 sound = 1 sense
> = 1 sign, the sound/sign for the sense "man" can be seen as a class affix
> for proper name...
> In fact any sound/sign/sense is a class affix...
> And there is near nothing but class affixes...
>
> 2018-02-08 15:46 GMT+01:00 Pete Bleackley <[log in to unmask]>:
>
>> Noun classes I have in mind are
>>
>> Saale people
>> Foreigners
>> Wild animals
>> Domestic animals, slaves
>> Celestial and meteorological phenomena, fire, running water
>> Parts of the body (living), some edible plants
>> Places, most plants, still water
>> Dead things, toxic plants, things despised or noxious
>> Weapons and vehicles
>> Other tools and man-made objects
>> Other count nouns
>> Processes, active participals
>> States, passive participals, mass nouns, abstractions.
>>
>> Personal names will belong to the first, second or fourth classes as
>> appropriate.
>>
>> Pete
>>
>> ----Original message----
>> From : [log in to unmask]
>> Date : 08/02/2018 - 14:33 (GMT)
>> To : [log in to unmask]
>> Subject : Re: Bantu proper names
>>
>> Yeah, one nice thing to have in names is to keep them distinctive so you
>> can better avoid getting people mixed. If every personal name starts with
>> the same class prefix, it naturally decreases that distinctiveness
>> somewhat
>> and makes it tempting to drop the class marking. You can also go the route
>> of a diachronic argument. If your class markers originate from
>> determinative noun classifiers, they might have had a function in
>> indicating specificity or even definiteness. Since names refer anyway to
>> specific people or things, it might have been grammatical to drop the
>> classifiers with them, hence leading later on to no class markers with
>> names. Think of how English doesn't use the definite article with names.
>>
>> Of course, if you have a noun class system, every noun still needs to be
>> assigned to a class and this will have to show in agreement patterns.
>> There
>> are lots of good ways to do the assignment, as Christoph tells, and it's a
>> nice place to get creative. I'd start from semantic class assignment, but
>> even then you have immediately some further choices to make. If you are
>> named after an animal, for example, do you keep the name in the same
>> animal
>> class than the original noun or do you transfer it to a human class since
>> it's now a human name?
>>
>> Bantu languages also seem to like their diminutive and augmentative
>> classes, which gives a further idea. What if over time it becomes more and
>> more popular to form personal names as diminutives, and eventually what
>> started out as a diminutive class ends up being mostly a name class.
>>
>>    -Jyri
>>
>>
>> 2018-02-08 14:24 GMT+01:00 Anaìˆs A <[log in to unmask]>:
>>
>> > I don't think you would have to at all - at least in Swahili and
>> > Kinyarwanda, the two Bantu languages I'm most familiar with, names don't
>> > need any sort of prefix on them - as long as you use the appropriate
>> > agreement.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > > On Feb 8, 2018, at 05:09, Pete Bleackley <
>> [log in to unmask]>
>> > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > So, if I were translating into a conlang with a Bantu-like noun class
>> > system, I should add the relevant prefixes to proper names?
>> > >
>> > > ----Original message----
>> > > From : [log in to unmask]
>> > > Date : 08/02/2018 - 10:12 (GMT)
>> > > To : [log in to unmask]
>> > > Subject : Re: Bantu proper names
>> > >
>> > >> On 02/08/2018 08:53 AM, Pete Bleackley wrote:
>> > >> How do proper names work in the noun class system of Bantu languages?
>> > >
>> > > ndiyakuhamba esikolweni: I walk to school
>> > > ndiyakuhamba imonti: I walk to East London.
>> > >
>> > > Place names are a noun class.
>> > >
>> > > Personal names.
>> > >
>> > > European names are modified to the language sound pattern, and then
>> > > added to the same noun class as traditional personal names.
>> > > By way of example, "John" becomes "iJohn", but he is called something
>> > > else. (^1)
>> > >
>> > > There is a taboo against using a person's name, or a homophone
>> thereof.
>> > > Nicknames are common, but people usually don't know their nickname.
>> (It
>> > > is rude to ask others what one's nickname is. Furthermore, your
>> nickname
>> > > at work is different from your nickname at home.)
>> > >
>> > > In some instances, there is also a taboo on using the name of the
>> place
>> > > where one lives. So instead of saying "imonti", you'll say
>> (translated)
>> > > "where the drunk captain ran his ship aground".
>> > >
>> > >> Do they have class prefixes or not?
>> > >
>> > > Singular form is one noun class.
>> > > Plural form is a different noun class;
>> > >
>> > > You have:
>> > > * Subject concords;
>> > > * Object concords;
>> > > * Tense indicators;
>> > > * Negation indicators;
>> > > and a couple of other things that can appear at the beginning, middle,
>> > > or end of the word.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > ^1: Formal documents, newspapers, and the like use proper names.  And
>> > > traditionalists are extremely displeased, because it increases the
>> > > chances of bad things happening to them.  However, there are ways to
>> > > avoid the negativity of people directly using their name, most of
>> which
>> > > cost large sums of money, and involve things that smell very bad.
>> > >
>> > > jonathon
>> >
>>
>
>

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December 1998, Week 5
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