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CONLANG  February 2018, Week 3

CONLANG February 2018, Week 3

Subject:

Re: A whacky idea?

From:

James Kane <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 21 Feb 2018 23:06:42 +1300

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (58 lines)

> On 21/02/2018, at 9:07 PM, Raymond Brown <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> 
>> On 20/02/2018 21:45, Alex Fink wrote:
>> On Tue, 20 Feb 2018 20:49:18 +0000, Raymond Brown wrote:
> [snip]
>>> At present, as well as tydying up the Consonants and Vowels pages, I am also revising the Orthography page, which badly needs rewriting.  I have been wondering about _z_.  It will not have
>>> been in the earliest Britainese but will be introdiced quite early
>>> in more learned words such as _baptizar_, _evangelizar_ etc.  The learned pronunciation would almost certainly be [dz] as it was in Old French.  I had been sort of assuming it would pass to plain
>>> [z] as it dis in French.  But in one or two wild moments I had considered [dz] -> [ð], so that Britainese /ð/ is written _z_, rather than _dh_ (or _đ_ ).
>>> I had dismissed this as a wild idea, but having met it this
>>> evening in an actual Romancelang, I am wondering if it isn't so
>>> whacky after all?
>> My gut reaction is that it's still wacky in the Britainese context.
> 
> Sadly, I think you are correct.  The idea is certainly not whacky per_se
> and if I was 'discovering' a lost Romlang in some obscure European
> enclave, it would fine.  But I have been using the way things have gone
> *here* in Welsh, English and northern Gaul as controls of what is likely
> to happen in Britainese in BART.
> 
> Certainly there never was any move in English to spell /ð/ as _z_; it
> was, however, one proposal in Welsh, as well _ð_.  But as we know Welsh
> has stuck with _dd_; and [ð] was lost in northern French dialects.

I think it's plausible, doubly so if /dz/ becomes /ð/. There's certainly precedent of <z> being used for dental fricatives in Iberia. Would they have enough contact with Occitan to recognise cognates with /z/ where Britainese retains /ð/?

>> I'd actually expect a pre-existing phonemic /ð/, and what's more a /ð/:/z/ contrast which makes the sibilancy feature for anterior coronal fricatives active in Britainese, to exert pressure against [dz] losing its sibilance as it would have to do en route to merging into [ð].
> 
> I'd expect [dz] to simply shift to [z] as it did in French.  The dental
> fricatives were no more liked in English or Welsh here.

Was the change /dz/ > /z/ part of the general fricativisation of affricates, though? As Britainese retains it's other affricates, it could plausibly retain /dz/ long enough to wander. I agree it would be somewhat unlucky to end up as /ð/, although sound change producing /ð/ isn't unheard of in the area - I recently learnt of Jèrriais' voiced dental fricative. Most come from /r/, but at least according to Wikipedia, some older speakers have it in some words where most have /z/.

>> Your idea would affect [ts] as well, and that prompts for me two half-related questions: - Have you reached any conclusion about the acquisition of /θ/ from Germanic?
> 
> It could come only through direct borrowings, and what would have borrowed?

Somewhat related, and sorry if you've addressed this already, I assume Britainese would pronounce an initial /h/ in Germania borrowings at some point in its history. Will it retain this or lose it?

>> - There is at least transiently a /ts/ in the 2pl verb endings.
> 
> No, the /t/ and /s/ would have undergone lenition so, e.g. -[a:tɪs] ->
> -[adez] -> -[adz] and thus -[az].
> 
> This is, infact, similar to French development, except [a:] finishes up
> as [e] in French and also Old French devoiced final consonants so there
> it developed to -[ets], written _ez_.  It has continued to be written
> that way even though the ending underwent firther changes, namely, ->
> -[es] -> -[e].      :)
> 
>> And you said you had morphological thoughts bursting to get out, and
>> I'm certainly curious...
> 
> A taster above.   :)

Excellent! Can't wait for more. I'm already trying to imagine what the rest of the paradigm looks like!

James

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