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CONLANG  February 2018, Week 3

CONLANG February 2018, Week 3

Subject:

Re: A whacky idea?

From:

Raymond Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 21 Feb 2018 11:54:25 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (97 lines)

On 21/02/2018 10:06, James Kane wrote:
>> On 21/02/2018, at 9:07 PM, Raymond Brown wrote:
>> 
>>> On 20/02/2018 21:45, Alex Fink wrote:
[snip]
>>> My gut reaction is that it's still wacky in the Britainese 
>>> context.
>> 
>> Sadly, I think you are correct.  The idea is certainly not whacky 
>> per_se and if I was 'discovering' a lost Romlang in some obscure 
>> European enclave, it would fine.  But I have been using the way 
>> things have gone *here* in Welsh, English and northern Gaul as 
>> controls of what is likely to happen in Britainese in BART.
>> 
>> Certainly there never was any move in English to spell /ð/ as _z_;
>>  it was, however, one proposal in Welsh, as well _ð_.  But as we 
>> know Welsh has stuck with _dd_; and [ð] was lost in northern French
>> dialects.
> 
> I think it's plausible, doubly so if /dz/ becomes /ð/.

Yes, indeed, if /dz/ -> /ð/ it would be quite plausible.  But there is
no support from languages spoken in this part of the world *here* for
that development.
> certainly precedent of <z> being used for dental fricatives in 
> Iberia. Would they have enough contact with Occitan to recognise 
> cognates with /z/ where Britainese retains /ð/?

The modern Spanish use of <z> = /θ/ is much later.  Medieval Spanish
/dz/ and /ts/ both brcame /ts/ and shifted to /θ/ in Castilian but /s/
in Andulusian.

As for the contacts with Occitan, difficult to say.

[snip]
>> 
>> I'd expect [dz] to simply shift to [z] as it did in French.  The 
>> dental fricatives were no more liked in English or Welsh here.
> 
> Was the change /dz/ > /z/ part of the general fricativisation of 
> affricates, though? As Britainese retains it's other affricates, it 
> could plausibly retain /dz/ long enough to wander.

English *here* has had /tʃ/ and /dʒ/ from Old English until the present
day.  But dental/alveolar affricates were not favored.  When French
words were borrowed after 1066 they ae retained the /tʃ/ and /dʒ/ sounds
till the present day, e.g. change, charge, judge etc; but borrowings
with /ts/ have not retained the affricate, e.g. grace, face, and middle
English _nacioun_.  The change of all affricates to fricatives took
place in french during the 13th century; it didn't affect English
borrowings with /tʃ/ and /dʒ/ and I supect English had already shifted
/ts/ -> /s/ before then.

> I agree it would be somewhat unlucky to end up as /ð/, although
> sound change producing /ð/ isn't unheard of in the area - I recently
> learnt of Jèrriais' voiced dental fricative. Most come from /r/, but
> at least according to Wikipedia, some older speakers have it in some 
> words where most have /z/.

I'm aware of /ð/ in Jerriais; but that a far more recent development.
In any case Britainese does have /ð/ - but probably not from /dz/.

[snip]
> 
> Somewhat related, and sorry if you've addressed this already, I 
> assume Britainese would pronounce an initial /h/ in Germania 
> borrowings at some point in its history. Will it retain this or lose
>  it?

I must confess I've rather dodged this one so far.

On 21/02/2018 10:59, Alex Fink wrote:
[snip]>
> "North" and "south", you had been wondering about.

They end in [ð] at present.

> And there could be plenty of others, if Britainese was as eager to 
> borrow from OE as French was from Frankish.  I had fun paging through
>  
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_French_words_of_Germanic_origin

[snip]

Thanks for that.  I must look again at germanic borrowings.  I suspect
the number of borrowings would be similar to that found in french from
Frankish.


> Oh, and what about Germanic /h/?  Could there be any phenomenon like
>  French h-aspiré?

I hope not.  ;)

As both James & Alex have brought this up, I must rethink /h/.  I
believe it is still pronounced in Picard and Walloon.

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