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CONLANG  February 2018, Week 4

CONLANG February 2018, Week 4

Subject:

Re: A whacky idea?

From:

Raymond Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 23 Feb 2018 14:41:20 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (154 lines)

On 22/02/2018 21:14, Deiniol Jones wrote:
>
[snip]
>
> Thinking about it, the representation of [ð] in OTL’s British
> languages historically is remarkably variable:
>
> - OE, of course used <ð> and <þ> indiscriminately.

Altho we now regard <ð> and <đ>, they were originally simply variants of
the same letter: d with a bar through it. This would have been an
obvious thing for some Britainese scribes to have done. But there is,
of course, no plausible way in which the <þ> rune would have been used.

> - ME/EME (eventually!) settled on <th>

Yes, the digraphs _ch, ph_ and _th_ were already established in Latin,
originally as representing ancient Greek aspirated voicless plosives.
So their use by Romance speaking scribes would be expected.

That Norman scribes would render [θ] as <th> was to be expected. I
suspect that [θ] and [ð] were still considered as variants of the same
sound in ME as, indeed, they still are by many today, so the spelling of
[ð] as <th> is not surprising.

> - OW and MW mainly used <d> to represent [ð], which of course is
> only logical when one considers the origin of the sound and the fact
> that post-vocalic [b d g] were generally represented by <p d c/k>

> - As I mentioned, Cornish made use of yogh, <z> or <th>: <dh> is a
> 19th century innovation of Jenner’s (IIRC) - indeed Lhuyd used Greek
> <δ> to represent [ð] in his phonetic orthography.

That's interesting. I've often wondered how old the <dh> spelling was.
  So it may well have been an innovation of Jenner's. I guess you know
that some people used Greek <δ> to represent Welsh [ð].

> I would guess that Mediaeval Britainese would have a variety of ways
> to represent the sound, from simple <d> through <z> or <dh> (<> was
> an OE innovation, I believe, so I’m unsure on whether the exact same
> process would have taken place in BART).

<ð> was merely <d> with a stroke through it, using the Anglo-Saxon
Insular version of the Roman alphabet, i.e. <ð> and <đ> were, as I
observed above, allograph of the same letter. If it were not for that
fact that Rasmus Rask chose to use the old Anglo-Saxon way of writing it
in his 19th century standardization of Icelandic script, we would not,
I'm certain, consider it separate letter.

<d> with a stroke through it was used by medieval scribes for a variety
of purposes. It is IMO very likely that if [ð] had persisted longer in
French, we would have seen some scribes use this.

<z> was rarely used outside of learned or semi-learned words of Greek
origin where it was probably pronounced [dz] by those not knowing
Byzantine Greek. I think the only plausible way that <z> would have
been used to denote [ð] is if [dz] -> [ð]. Although we know this
happened in Romangol, I do not think it likely in Britainese.

> While <dh> has the merit of being attested in an actual Romance
> language, I’m not sure it occurs outside of the Strasbourg Oaths.
> Additionally, without a precedent of other digraphs ending in <h>,
> how likely is an innovation of <dh> without <ch> etc. as a
> precedent?
>
But there were other digraphs; _ch, ph, ch_, and, indeed, _rh_ had been
around for a few centuries. It appears <h> was regarded as a
'modifier'. <dh> as 'modified d' is surely very likely.

As for its use in other texts, I'm not aware of any. But interestingly
in the Anglo-Norman version of 'The Life of saint Alexis' (c.1150) we
find Old French [ð] written <th>. :)

But the sound fell slent during that century, so it never gave time for
a settled spelling of [dh] to emerge.

> I’m not sure that there *is* a wholly “likely” outcome here based on
> OTL precedent.
>
> (Furthermore, I’m not sure how stable a /ð/ without a contrasting
> /θ/ would be: while /ð/ is retained in all of OTL’s British
> languages, in each case it contrasts with the voiceless sound.

I guess this partly why there's been discussion about [θ] in Britainese :)

[snip]
> IMHO, I would expect an Early Britainese /ð/ to merge with either /d/
> or /z/ quite quickly.)

It's unlikely to have merged with /d/. If /ð/ is not maintained, then
the most likely development would surely be either to zero, as in the
Langues d'oîl and, of course, standard French, or shift to [z] as Occitan.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

On 22/02/2018 23:32, And Rosta wrote:
> On 22 February 2018 at 19:43, Raymond Brown wrote:
>
>> On 22/02/2018 18:00, And Rosta wrote: [snip]
>>
>>>
>>> Examples of θ loss are plentiful; I'm sure you could list very
>>> many. I don't know enough of Greek phonology or dialectology to
>>> have any thoughts on why /θ/ and /ð/ persist (tho I gather the
>>> development of /ð/--/d/ is relatively recent?).
>>>
>>
>> If the early centuries AD are comparatively recent.
>>
>
> As often happens, I expressed myself unclearly. I meant that I
> gathered that the contrast between /ð/ and /d/ (as opposed to /Δ/
> and /NΔ/) is relatively recent.

[d] is normally written _ΝΤ_. [b d g] are allophones of /p t k/
occurring after a nasal consonant. In some dialects the nasal is
silent. Conventionally the combinations μπ ντ γκ are used to represent
[b d g] in words of foreign origin.

Whether modern Greek has _phonemes_ /b d g/ has been a source of
controversy, which I don't want to get sidetracked on here. What is
certain is that Byzantine Greek had the phonemes /t θ ð/, and [d] was an
allophone of /t/. Some analyses of modern Greek used to follow this
also; but if /d/ is established as a distinct phoneme what we have is a
comparatively recent distinction of /d/ from /t/. I has nothing to do
with dental fricatives that we are discussing.

Also the development of plosives and fricatives from ancient to modern
Greek is _quite different_ from the development of Vulgar Latin plosives
in western Romance languages.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I note my change of subject line to 'Britainese /h/, /θ,/ and /ð/' has
not had the result I wished. That one seems to be turning into YAEPT. ;)

So I'll summarize here, as I see it:

1. The can de litt;le doubt that, like early French, early Britainese
would have had /ð/.

2. Britainese could have /θ/ only as a result of borrowing from Germanic.

3. It is being argued that without the contrast /θ/ ~ /ð/, /ð/ is
unlikely to have remained as a phoneme (I am not entirely convinced by
that argument).

4. If /ð/ is not maintained then either it falls altogether, as in later
Old French, or it shifts to [z].

I find the idea that sound soften then hardens again, i.e. [d] -> [ð] ->
[d] implausible in the context of a western Romance language. There
lenition is surely followed by further lenition, hence 4 above.

Ray

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