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CONLANG  February 2018, Week 4

CONLANG February 2018, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Initial [w h θ] in Britainese?

From:

Raymond Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 24 Feb 2018 19:34:25 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (128 lines)

On 24/02/2018 17:02, Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
> Hallo conlangers!
[snip]
>> 
>> *************************** Initial [w] ************************
>> This has long been part of Britainese and has good Romance 
>> predecents from the languages of northern Gaul, sse subsection 
>> '3.2.2 Germanic /w/ retained' on: 
>> http://www.carolandray.plus.com/BART/consonants.html
>> 
>> There has been no counter-arguments given on this list.  So this 
>> stays.
> 
> We have w > gw in most western Romance, and also in Welsh, though, so
> one may expect this shift in Britainese as well. Yet, retention of 
> /w/ would be an interesting _Alleinstellungsmerkmal_ of Britainese. 
> After all, the w > gw shift in Welsh is connected to its initial 
> mutation system, which Britainese, if I am informed correctly, does 
> not have. And English of course did not undergo such a change!

I think the points raised are answered in subsection 3.2.2 - see above.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
On 24/02/2018 17:33, David McCann wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 14:50:48 +0000 Raymond Brown 
> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> 
>> 2. How would this effect spelling?  Clearly <h> = [h] would remain.
>> Would there have been a tendency to omit inherited silent <h> in
>> words of Latin origin?  AFAIK the only Romancelangs to have done
>> this are Italian and Romanian; Romanian does have <h> but only in
>> words of non-Latin origin.
>> 
>> 3. If silent <h> is retained then we have a language in which one 
>> has to learn which words have this redundant letter.  We would get
>>  something aking to French 'h-aspiré' ~ 'h-muet', except in 
>> Britainese 'h-aspiré" would be aspirated.  :)
> 
> Most Romance languages were seldom written in the Dark Ages unless 
> one really had to (Strasbourg Oaths): writing meant Latin. When the 
> British wrote their own language, they would have some words with 
> /h/-, so no reason to put {h} elsewhere in imitation of Latin:

Except, of course, the scribes would be familiar with Latin and its
'silent h' (Late Latin & Medieval Latin did not use the post-Erasmic
'restored Classsical' pronunciation. :)

> consider Rumanian hol "hall" but aven "we have".

But, alas, Romanian is no guide.  It used to written in Cyrllic.  Altho
there had been sporadic example of Latin script earlier, it wasn't till
the late 18th cent. that real movement developed to switch to the Latin
alphabet; the current Romanian orthography is the conscious product of
19th century scholars.

Britainese, on the other hand, will, like all western Romance languages,
have been written in Latin script from the start.  At first under heavy
Latin influence and eventually developig their own local characteristics.

> The inherited words in French (e.g. avoir) lost their {h} and the 
> later loans didn't write it until the fourteenth century, by which 
> time spelling and punctuation were parting company: abillier, erbe 
> were standard in the 13th century.

I will look at this more closely.

>> Clearly the Ingvaeonic settlers in Britain would have preserved
>> [θ] in BART just as they did in OTL.  So it could be argued that
>> just as in OLT [θ] and [ð] survived in the Germanic language of
>> Britain (i.e. English) while continental Germanic languages lost
>> these sounds, so in BART [θ] and [ð] were retained in the Romance 
>> language of Britain, i.e. Britainese, but not in many of the 
>> continental Romancelangs (tho infact as we have seen some 
>> Romancelangs do have [θ] and [ð], but not in Germanic borrowings)?
> 
> I suppose it depends on how bilingual they were. Did the Romance 
> speakers really master Ingvaeonic, or did they make a mess of it?

I doubt whether they would have made much effort, after all the _lingua
Romana_ was regarded by conquerors and conquered alike as more prsetigious.

> I championed /θ δ/ the other day, but I should have admitted that 
> they didn't survive in Gaelic.

That is true:  [θ] -> [h], and [δ] -> [ɣ] (or [ʝ] if palatalized)

> Their survival in English may be aided by their heavy use in 
> demonstratives and pronouns.

Possibly, tho surely the survival of these sounds in Welsh & Cornish
must have helped.

But while the use of "to be" + verbnoun/gerund is common from Irish
Gaelic, through Scots Gaelic, to English, Welsh and Cornish (and Breton)
and can, therefore, rightly be considered an areal feature, having /θ/
and /δ/ is common only to English, Welsh & Cornish.  It is not found in
any version of Gaelic (Scots, Irish or Manx) and, except for isolated
survival of [δ] in one area of Breton, they are lost elsewhere.  So I
must reconsider the survival of [θ] and [δ] as an areal feature.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
On 24/02/2018 17:44, Aidan Aannestad wrote:
[snip]
> This, I think, is the key question regarding whether or not 
> Britainese gains /θ/. Whole phonemes tend to be loaned only in
> fairly close contact situations, though the possibility of creating
> a /θ/-/ð/ opposition might ease the loaning a bit. If contact
> between Britainese and the Germanic people in Britain doesn't involve
> a degree of widespread bilingualism, and especially since British 
> Germanic would have lower prestige attached to it than Britainese, I 
> doubt we'd see a whole phoneme loaned across. It's much more likely, 
> IMO, that we'd see the same as what happened in French, namely, 
> realising Germanic /θ/ as /t/

Thank you, Aidan, very fair points.

> (or perhaps /s/ or /f/, if you want to be different; I'm not sure 
> what factors would affect the choice).

Nor am I.  Nor do I want to be different just for the sake of being
different; it's not that sort of conlang - life would be a lot easier if
it were.  I do want choices to be made on a plausible a basis as
possible, while letting Britainese develop its own flavor of Romance.

It does look as though [θ] and [δ] are on their way out.

Ray.

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