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CONLANG Home

CONLANG Home

CONLANG  February 2018, Week 4

CONLANG February 2018, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Britainese has [θ] and [ð]

From:

Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 28 Feb 2018 05:36:02 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (69 lines)

On Tue, 27 Feb 2018 13:27:50 -0500, Mark J. Reed <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>Yay for decisions! On to the next conundrum, then!

Yes, like the question of whether to give Britainese a compound noun for 'towel war'.  That would be werthwail.

sorry not sorry,
Alex

>On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 12:12 PM, Raymond Brown <[log in to unmask]>
>wrote:
>
>> A meeting I was to attend this afternoon has been cancelled/postponed
>> because of snow that's hit the eastern side of the UK.  So having gained
>> more time, I'm getting round now to explaining my resons for the subject
>> line.
>>
>> 1. That [θ] and [ð] were not prserved in Gaelic either in OTL or in BART
>> is IMO not relevant.  This was a development in _Ireland_, not Britain,
>> and taken across to Scotland during the 5th to 10th centuries.  But as
>> it has been observed, English, Welsh and Cornish have preserved these
>> sounds for more than one and half millennia until the present day.  We
>> may take it as an areal feature of Britain south of Gaeldom.
>>
>> 2. Early Britainese, like early French and other western Romance
>> languages inherited [ð] as a result of lenition of /d/ when intervocal
>> or final in Proto-Western-Romance.
>>
>> 3. The Ingvaeones who settled in Britain had word-initial [θ]; it is
>> likely that some loan words from Ingvaeonic would have contained [θ].
>> That this did not happen in continental Romance languages is because
>> continental Germanic underwent th-fronting: High German by about 900
>> (hence we do not find [θ] in Raeto-Romance borrowings from High German),
>> and in the Low German languages between 11th and 14th centuries (during
>> the 12th century French was already losing [ð]), thus we do not find [t]
>> not [θ] in loan words from Franksh.
>>
>> 4. Thus just as in OTL in Britain one Germanic language, i.e. English,
>> and two Celtic languages, Welsh and Cornish, have retained [[θ] and [ð]
>> for one and half millennia till the present day, so in BART in britain
>> one Romance language has retained [[θ] and [ð] for one and half
>> millennia till the present day.
>>
>> Note:
>> This will not make Britainese unique among Romance languages in having
>> both [θ] and [ð] phones; as several people have pointed out, this is not
>> uncommon among Romance languages.  What is, admittedly, more unusual is
>> to have both phonemes /θ/ and /ð/, though even that is found.
>>
>> I am totally unpersuaded by the argument that the sounds are unstable
>> and that the chances are they would have been lost at some stage simply
>> because there are languages that in which these sounds have remained
>> stable for a good mellenniun and half at least, e.g.  Welsh, English and
>> Greek; and they have remained stable in Icelandic ever since Norsemen
>> settled in that island from the 9th century onwards.   Maybe it's a
>> feature of languages on fringe areas.  :)
>>
>> So, yes, as I wrote on 21st Feb.: "... as well as subsection '3.2.2
>> Germanic /w/ retained', I'll have [to] have 'Germanic /h/ and /θ/
>> retained."
>>
>> Ray
>>
>
>
>
>-- 
>Mark J. Reed <[log in to unmask]>

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