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CONLANG  February 2018, Week 4

CONLANG February 2018, Week 4

Subject:

Re: A whacky idea?

From:

Deiniol Jones <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 22 Feb 2018 18:48:14 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (41 lines)

> Date:    Wed, 21 Feb 2018 08:07:35 +0000
> From:    Raymond Brown <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: A whacky idea?
> 
>> On 20/02/2018 21:45, Alex Fink wrote:
>> On Tue, 20 Feb 2018 20:49:18 +0000, Raymond Brown wrote:
> [snip]
>>> At present, as well as tydying up the Consonants and Vowels pages, 
>>> I am also revising the Orthography page, which badly needs 
>>> rewriting.  I have been wondering about _z_.  It will not have
>>> been in the earliest Britainese but will be introdiced quite early
>>> in more learned words such as _baptizar_, _evangelizar_ etc.  The 
>>> learned pronunciation would almost certainly be [dz] as it was in 
>>> Old French.  I had been sort of assuming it would pass to plain
>>> [z] as it dis in French.  But in one or two wild moments I had 
>>> considered [dz] -> [ð], so that Britainese /ð/ is written _z_, 
>>> rather than _dh_ (or _đ_ ).
>>> 
>>> I had dismissed this as a wild idea, but having met it this
>>> evening in an actual Romancelang, I am wondering if it isn't so
>>> whacky after all?
>> 
>> My gut reaction is that it's still wacky in the Britainese context.
> 
> Sadly, I think you are correct.  The idea is certainly not whacky per_se
> and if I was 'discovering' a lost Romlang in some obscure European
> enclave, it would fine.  But I have been using the way things have gone
> *here* in Welsh, English and northern Gaul as controls of what is likely
> to happen in Britainese in BART.
> 
> Certainly there never was any move in English to spell /ð/ as _z_; it
> was, however, one proposal in Welsh, as well _ð_.  But as we know Welsh
> has stuck with _dd_; and [ð] was lost in northern French dialects.

For what it’s worth, traditional Cornish made use of both yogh and z for [ð]- if Britainese already makes use of intervocalic <s> for [z] (and lacks anlaut [ð]), <z> seems an elegant choice to me for [ð]. But then again I like complex orthographies!

Also, for what it’s worth, it seems to me that while you’ve decided against final devoicing in Britainese, final *fricatives* appear to be prone to devoicing in English, Welsh and Cornish. Obviously not plural -s in English, but otherwise it seems to be a common occurrence. 

(Totally randomly, I know you’ve discounted the survival of Welsh in BART- but have you considered the early situation north of Hadrian’s Wall? Might not there be a Breton-like survival in the Hen Gogledd? When I made my own attempt at this a few years ago, I had “Welsh” survive in the OTL’s Scottish Lowlands.)

Dan

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