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CONLANG  February 2018, Week 4

CONLANG February 2018, Week 4

Subject:

Re: A whacky idea?

From:

Deiniol Jones <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 22 Feb 2018 21:14:02 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (54 lines)

Raymond Brown wrote:

> [snip]> For what it’s worth, traditional Cornish made use of both yogh and z
> > for [ð]- if Britainese already makes use of intervocalic <s> for [z]
> >  (and lacks anlaut [ð]), <z> seems an elegant choice to me for [ð].
> Yes, it would be an elegant choice.  If I was constructed a language
> just for my own pleasure, I would adopt it.  But I have to consider how
> plausible it would be in the context of Britainese.

Thinking about it, the representation of [ð] in OTL’s British languages historically is remarkably variable:

- OE, of course used <ð> and <þ> indiscriminately.
- ME/EME (eventually!) settled on <th>
- OW and MW mainly used <d> to represent [ð], which of course is only logical when one considers the origin of the sound and the fact that post-vocalic [b d g] were generally represented by <p d c/k>
- As I mentioned, Cornish made use of yogh, <z> or <th>: <dh> is a 19th century innovation of Jenner’s (IIRC) - indeed Lhuyd used Greek <δ> to represent [ð] in his phonetic orthography.

I would guess that Mediaeval Britainese would have a variety of ways to represent the sound, from simple <d> through <z> or <dh> (<ð> was an OE innovation, I believe, so I’m unsure on whether the exact same process would have taken place in BART). While <dh> has the merit of being attested in an actual Romance language, I’m not sure it occurs outside of the Strasbourg Oaths. Additionally, without a precedent of other digraphs ending in <h>, how likely is an innovation of <dh> without <ch> etc. as a precedent? I’m not sure that there *is* a wholly “likely” outcome here based on OTL precedent.

(Furthermore, I’m not sure how stable a /ð/ without a contrasting /θ/ would be: while /ð/ is retained in all of OTL’s British languages, in each case it contrasts with the voiceless sound. The only European language that has /ð/ without /θ/ that springs to mind is Jerriais, and the change is a remarkably recent innovation- within the past two centuries at most, and not yet penetrating the entire speech community. IMHO, I would expect an Early Britainese /ð/ to merge with either /d/ or /z/ quite quickly.)


> > But then again I like complex orthographies.
> > 
> > Also, for what it’s worth, it seems to me that while you’ve decided 
> > against final devoicing in Britainese, final *fricatives* appear to 
> > be prone to devoicing in English, Welsh and Cornish. Obviously not 
> > plural -s in English, but otherwise it seems to be a common 
> > occurrence.
>
>  Southern English [wɪð], Scots [wɪθ] ?
>
> I can think of plenty of final voiced fricatives in English: leave,
> bathe, stove, rove, seethe, smooth etc, etc.
> 
> Final /v/ in colloquial Welsh is normally dropped, not devoiced. And as
> for final [ð], cf. bedd "grave" [n.], dydd "day", pridd "soil, earth",
> gogledd "north" and so on, not forgetting the Welsh capital _Caerdydd_.

Cornish devoices auslaut stops and fricatives in polysyllables: Kernowe_k_, modry_p_, mene_th_ etc.

In English, diachronically those final voiced fricatives seem to be the result of a loss of final vowels in the main, e.g. OE līf > [laif] vs līfe [laiv]: although here one could argue with merit that the development was more voiceless > voiced intervocalically than final devoicing. 

> > (Totally randomly, I know you’ve discounted the survival of Welsh in
> >  BART- but have you considered the early situation north of Hadrian’s
> >  Wall? Might not there be a Breton-like survival in the Hen Gogledd?
> >  When I made my own attempt at this a few years ago, I had “Welsh” 
> > survive in the OTL’s Scottish Lowlands.)
> 
> I suppose it not impossible, but it would be under pressure from Gaelic
> to the north and Britainese from the south.

It would certainly make for some interesting dialectal variation! Maybe Britainese’s equivalent of Geordie (Pontaelian??) has a vaguely Welsh-like lilt? :)

Dan

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