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CONLANG  March 2018, Week 3

CONLANG March 2018, Week 3

Subject:

Re: OT: "Arrival" the 2016 film

From:

"Krista D. Casada" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 20 Mar 2018 17:39:36 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (1 lines)

The more the merrier, and you're not too late!


Krista C.

________________________________
From: Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Walter Sperat <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2018 12:30:40 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: OT: "Arrival" the 2016 film

A bit late, but I think I might be able to add something more that hasn't
been said...
First, I REALLY liked both the movie and the story, though the story is
better IMO. However, I won't try to convince anybody that the movie itself
is good, I'd like to talk about something else, and will use a movie I
absolutely hated (again, my opinion...) to illustrate the point:
Annihilation, with Poe Dameron and Natalie Portman, I mean Oscar Isaac and
Natalie Portman. For those who still haven't seen it, there will be a major
spoiler (I'll try to keep it as un-spoilery as possible though), so if you
want to avoid it, feel free to jump to the @ down below.



-SPOILER START-
Part of the premise of the film is that the Shimmer (a mysterious entity
that resides in the South US) is able to "refract" everything: light, radio
waves, magnetic fields and DNA. In the film, this last part is particularly
important, for the animals, plants and people in the region get drastic,
sometimes horrific mutations in their DNA. These mutations happen while the
organisms are alive, and generate several hybrids, such as a crocodile with
shark teeth, deer with flowers on their antlers and a bear that can scream
like a human being to lure prey. They come to this "refraction" conclusion
when they discover a group of plants that grow in the shape of human beings.
The character that deduces this is a phycisist, and she tells the biologist
(Natalie Portman) that if she sequences the plant's genes, she'll find
human Hox genes, elements that are crucial in the determination of an
animal's body-plan.
-SPOILER END-


@



Both my girlfriend and me are biochemists specialized in genetic
engineering, so we understand pretty well how these things work. When the
movie ended she told me that she hated it, and my response was "at least
somebody took the trouble of reading what a Hox gene is". Sadly, we live in
a world where curiosity and passion about things is normally frowned upon,
being considered 'nerdy' of 'freaky' or whatnot; there's a concept in
Spanish called "divulgación científica", meaning the "laymen level"
explanations about sciency stuff (such as Brian Cox of Brian Greene do with
physics). It's pretty hard to get people to get interested, much less read
about things for themselves, especially if they've never heard of it. So,
when a high-budget movie such as this mentions a real world scientific
concept, I get my hopes up, for I know somewhere a curious kid will
wikipedia it. And that's good, because by putting a real world word in a
script, they are inadvertently getting scientific stuff out there to the
general public.
Nobody cares how stupidly the concept is introduced in the movie, I'm and
avid SF reader, and try not to let those things bother me, because SF is
rarely about the science itself, but about our relationship with it IMHO.
So... back to Arrival, regardless of my personal opinions on the movie, I
think it's a great thing to have an entire Hollywood movie (and an almost
Oscar-awardee one at that) that ABSOLUTELY REVOLVES AROUND the analysis of
a non-human language. As conlangers I think it could be good for us, and
may even inspire a wave of now adepts, perhaps even full-time professional
linguists.
So what if the science is hocus pocus? The movie goes through several
linguistic concepts such as language-learning, the non-equivalence between
different languages, the importance of understanding what a word actually
means to a certain people when they speak it and, yes, it abuses
Sapir-Whorf.
So, as conlangers, I urge you to see the movie as if you were a little kid,
and had never heard that some people study this weird thing we use every
day to communicate. For I assure you, somewhere, some kid discovered
Sapir-Whorf exists and, like if they put it in wikipedia, they'll learn
more about linguistics than they would have otherwise.
Sorry about the rant, but I felt I had to get this out there.
W.








On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 11:51 AM, Krista D. Casada <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Thank you all! Imagine getting so much food for thought from a movie
> starring seven-footed octopi who speak in coffee-rings!😉
>
> Krista C.
>
> ________________________________
> From: Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]> on behalf
> of Chris Peters <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2018 9:34:58 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: OT: "Arrival" the 2016 film
>
> I'd like to add some context here.  I've read other work by Ted Chiang,
> the author who wrote the story that the movie was based on.
>
>
> Pseudoscience is his "thing" as an author.  The common thread between all
> his stories is:  what if a particular pseudoscientific "theory" was true?
> What kind of implication would that have on the kind of world that we live
> in?
>
>
> An extremist view of Sapir-Whorf was the particular pseudoscience
> presented in "Arrival".  I agree that the movie would have been better if
> that aspect of Chiang's motivation as an author was more directly
> explored.  But even without that, I enjoyed the story.
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]> on behalf
> of A Walker Scott <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Monday, March 19, 2018 4:19 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: OT: "Arrival" the 2016 film
>
> I will agree that the one thing they got right was the time and confusion
> involved in learning an unknown language. The Whorfian thing is just so
> overdone. But absolutely none of the characters was at all interesting to
> me. I was sitting there watching a movie about aliens AND linguistics
> written buy a CHINESE author (A perfect storm for me!!) wondering when the
> thing would ever just get it over and END. I found the whole thing
> massively boring. And the plot twist at the end just made the whole story
> stupid, to me. I still plan to read the short story to see if it's
> significantly better than the movie.
>
> On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 8:04 AM, Dirk Elzinga <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> > I actually thought the movie was a pretty good representation of
> > what field linguists do, given the constraints film-makers have put
> > on themselves.
> >
> > The Whorfian thinking didn't bother me a bit. For some perspective,
> > talk to a physicist sometime about time- / faster-than-light travel to
> > see how SF can get stuff intentionally and spectacularly wrong for
> > the sake of telling an interesting story.[1]
> >
> > AND THE MAIN CHARACTER IS A WOMAN WHO DOESN'T HAVE
> > TO ACT LIKE A MAN IN ORDER TO GET THINGS DONE.
> >
> > So I think that there's a lot to love about Arrival. But if what you're
> > interested in is linguistic realism, go take a linguistics course or do
> > your own fieldwork.
> >
> > Dirk
> >
> > [1] Whether you found the story of Arrival interesting or not is another
> > matter. I found it to be quite moving; it's a story of a mother's love
> for
> > her child, not first contact with aliens and saving the world.
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 2:34 PM, Asher Jaffe <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> >
> > > The film does treat the audience like idiots who know nothing about
> > > language whatsoever, so Forrest Whitaker is a complete idiot.  The rest
> > of
> > > it was a little lame.  It took the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis too goddamn
> > far.
> > > I hate the S-W hypothesis.  It's fine in small doses but NO!  Time does
> > not
> > > work that way!  Language doesn't allow you to make a paradox!  Overall,
> > > it's a linguistically uninteresting and inaccurate rehash of
> Christopher
> > > Nolan's* The Prestige* or* Memento*.
> > >
> > > On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 4:27 PM, A Walker Scott <
> [log in to unmask]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > LOL There was a thread right about the time of the release. It seems
> > like
> > > > Alex, or maybe Sai, was involved, or maybe even started it. I don't
> > > > remember much about the content, and may have been putting of reading
> > the
> > > > thread until I saw the movie, which I did after it came out on
> video. I
> > > > felt much like you. I wanted to strangle SOMEbody. Not another
> > > Sapir-Whorf
> > > > rehash. It's been done. It's not fresh. It's not cutting edge. It
> isn't
> > > > even valid.
> > > >
> > > > Adam
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 7:01 AM, Krista D. Casada <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hello all,
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Has there been any discussion of the 2016 film "The Arrival,"
> > starring
> > > > Amy
> > > > > Adams and Jeremy Renner, on this list--on a thread I might have
> > missed?
> > > > > Watched it and wanted to strangle someone, but have not yet decided
> > > whom.
> > > > > 😉 Would be very interested in others' opinions, especially of the
> > > > > linguistic aspects. ("You translated Farsi videos in, like, ten
> > > minutes.
> > > > > Whaddya mean you can't *translate* this unknown alien language?!?")
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Krista C.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

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July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
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June 2007, Week 5
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May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
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April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
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March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
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February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
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January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
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November 2006, Week 3
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November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
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October 2006, Week 1
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August 2006, Week 5
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July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
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July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
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May 2006, Week 5
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May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
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January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
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October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
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September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
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July 2005, Week 3
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July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
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February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
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November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
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July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
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May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
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April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
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March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
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January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
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December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
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August 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 5
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May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
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April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
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March 2001, Week 3
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March 2001, Week 1
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February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
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December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
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October 2000, Week 5
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March 2000, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 3
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February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
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December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
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November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
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October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
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September 1998, Week 3

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