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CONLANG  March 2018, Week 5

CONLANG March 2018, Week 5

Subject:

Re: OT: "Arrival" the 2016 film

From:

Seth KAZAN <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 29 Mar 2018 15:05:43 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (188 lines)

We can compare this story with that, even more ample, of "the Writing of
the God" by Borges ...
Who can not read the Maya writings only sees jaguar rosettes ...
Who knows how to read rosettes of jaguar, will see the secrets of the
universe ...

Turing tried it, not sure that he would have obtained the same result if he
had succeeded ...
(but after all, the project of sciences is there, and the parable is
fruitful...)

2018-03-28 22:22 GMT+02:00 Krista D. Casada <[log in to unmask]>:

> I kind of thought that's what the heptapods were doing, but I am not the
> brightest crayon in the box.
>
>
> Krista C.
>
> ________________________________
> From: Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]> on behalf
> of Pete Bleackley <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2018 2:11:02 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: OT: "Arrival" the 2016 film
>
> In kanji, the character "go" (word, language) is composed of elements
> that can be interpreted as "sounds like five and means something that
> comes out of the mouth". It occurred to me that a 2D language could
> potentially work by incorporating glyphs into larger glyphs, so that the
> entire sentence became one big, arbitrarily complex, composite glyph.
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> On  Tuesday, 27 Mar, 2018 at 23:54, And Rosta<[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 27 Mar 2018, 22:12 Seth KAZAN, <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> > 2D language is only potentially, we are quite incapable (unlike the
> > heptapods (and perhaps Louise)) to apprehend a surface language
> > without following a linear path, would it be fractal ...
> >
>
> Unlws is somewhat like a diagram of electrical circuits. Bidivagian is
> not-individually-meaningful symbols placed upon a two-dimensional grid.
> In
> each case one can with effort decode a text, but in neither case can one
> apprehend it by means of our human psycholinguistic apparatus.
> Bidivagian
> is an attempt to find a maximally pure encoding of predicate--argument
> structure. I suspect that humans simply don't have the brainpower to
> handle
> any sort of linearization of PAS beyond a quite basic limit; natlangs
> put a
> low cap on the complexity of encodable PAS (and also encode
> ambiguously).
>
> And
>
>
>
> > 2018-03-25 13:27 UTC+02:00, And Rosta <[log in to unmask]>:
> >> On Sat, 24 Mar 2018, 19:23 Mike S., <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Fri, Mar 23, 2018 at 7:41 PM, Sai <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >>>> I've been mulling it, off and on, this entire time. I'm not
> >>>> satisfied
> >>>> with the node-and-connections paradigm; it feels like but a tiny
> >>>> low-D
> >>>> projection of what a true nonlinear language could be. I have a
> >>>> very
> >>>> strong intuition that the fusional version _is_ possible to make,
> >>>> and
> >>>> that it's just … liminal to my consciousness how exactly to go
> >>>> about
> >>>> it.
> >>>>
> >>>> Granted, that's been the case for a decade, which is some evidence
> >>>> that my intuition is wrong. But I still feel it, and have
> >>>> occasionally
> >>>> gotten dream-like flashes of what it might be like.
> >>>
> >>
> >> When we discussed this offlist, my sense is that you were getting
> > glimpses
> >> of graphetic matter whose relationship to the phonology--graphology
> >> is
> > more
> >> like the fuzzier relationship between phonetics and phonology. In
> >> current
> >> Unlws, although only some aspects of lines and their relative
> > positionings
> >> are contrastive, there is nevertheless a clear distinction between
> >> what
> > is
> >> line and what is whitespace. The relationship between the raw
> >> acoustic
> >> phonetic signal and the signatures of phonological categories is far
> >> fuzzier. You were describing an etics without a distinction between
> >> line
> >> and whitespace, rather like (in kind rather than in particulars) a
> > phonetic
> >> spectrogram of an utterance. But if, as had seemed to be the case,
> >> there
> >> are still discrete phonological categories, and these still encode
> >> predicate--argument structures, then the difference from Unlws and
> >> from
> >> other languages in general would be superficial -- a radically
> > reconceived
> >> etics (as are the etics of the gripping language and food language)
> >> but
> > not
> >> a radically reconceived language. But I am of the view that a
> >> radically
> >> reconceived language would -- due to the reconception of its radices
> >> --
> > be
> >> not a language but some other sort of communication system. In a
> >> conlang
> >> discussion about "unlangs" -- xenolangs that are so xeno that they
> >> aren't
> >> langs -- I imagined that speakers have video screens and the ability
> >> to
> >> generate unlimited "cgi" but no phonology or syntax: that would be a
> >> powerful communicative tool but not in the least linguistic.
> >>
> >> What is conspicuous in Unlws is not only the graphetic--phonological
> >> homoeomorphism but also the phonological--syntactic homoeomorphism:
> >> Unlws
> >> is a pretty transparent notation for predicate--argument structure.
> >> So
> > too,
> >> mind you, is the somewhat dissimilar Bidivagian (formerly "2D
> >> Livagian"
> > = a
> >> certain generic strategy for notating PAS). I see Unlws and
> >> Bidivagian,
> >> therefore, as especially 'pure' languages in which the PAS is encoded
> > with
> >> maximal transparency. In lay terms, which is all I am capable of
> > wielding,
> >> PAS is graph-theoretically two-dimensional, so the perfect notation
> >> for
> > it
> >> is also two-dimensional. Actually, maybe Bidivagian, which is
> >> necessarily
> >> two-dimensional, is the more perfect, because Unlws could perfectly
> >> well
> >> work in three dimensions, and Unlws is better seen as a deviation
> >> from
> >> notational perfection in the direction of cognitive ergonomics. Unlws
> >> is
> > in
> >> fact, come to think of it, a two-dimensional drawing of a
> > three-dimensional
> >> object.
> >>
> >> So, I am dubious about the "tiny low-D projection of what a true
> > nonlinear
> >> language could be" idea. I think that deviation from pure
> >> bidivagianality
> >> leads either to diminished transparency between signal and message or
> >> to
> >> something that is not an encoding of PAS and hence is not language.
> >>
> >> It is certainly interesting, tho, to think what would be the most
> >> informationally compact two-dimensional human-decodable encoding of
> >> PAS,
> >> using stuff like colour and blink rates, and so forth.
> >>
> >>
> >> WRT the HepB of the movie, I have my own half-baked idea of how the
> > movie's
> >>> coffee-cup rings might be made to work (assuming someone has not
> >>> already
> >>> done that), one that does not use nodes and connectors as in your
> >>> language.  I will never develop the idea in fine detail, but I am
> > willing
> >>> to sketch it crudely if anyone is interested.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Of course anyone is interested! Sketch away!
> >>
> >> --And.
> >>
> >
>

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June 2006, Week 5
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April 2006, Week 5
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April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
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February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
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January 2006, Week 3
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January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
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November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
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April 2005, Week 5
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April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
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March 2005, Week 1
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January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
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November 2004, Week 3
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July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
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April 2004, Week 5
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November 2003, Week 3
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October 2003, Week 3
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July 2003, Week 3
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July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
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June 2003, Week 3
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June 2003, Week 1
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April 2003, Week 5
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April 2003, Week 3
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April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
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January 2003, Week 3
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January 2003, Week 1
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December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
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November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
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June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
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April 2002, Week 5
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April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
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March 2002, Week 3
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March 2002, Week 1
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February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
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January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
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December 2001, Week 4
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November 2001, Week 1
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October 2001, Week 1
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May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 1
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December 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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