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CONLANG  March 2018, Week 5

CONLANG March 2018, Week 5

Subject:

Re: A topicality-based inverse system (a long monograph on syntax)

From:

Aidan Aannestad <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 30 Mar 2018 21:25:36 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (102 lines)

On 2018/03/30 17:40, Logan Kearsley wrote:
>
> This is getting me thinking about other ways one could incorporate
> topic/focus information formally into the morphosyntax of a clause,
> other than just having explicit "this is he topic" markers a la
> Japanese or this language here (did you give it a name? I can't find
> one...).
>
> Unfortunately, I do not have time at the moment to go into great
> detail on that, so hopefully I will remember it later.
(It's temporary name is 'the Nonlang', short for 'the non-conworld 
conlang'; it'll have a real name eventually.)

I bet there's a lot of things you can do; and the more central they are 
to the morphosyntax, the more interested I am. I did consider having a 
topic = 'pivot' (that syntactically privileged argument) setting rather 
than just topic = actor, but it turns out 1) topic and pivot are in some 
ways semantically opposites and 2) English kind of does that in some 
ways already.

>
> This sounds similar to some of the problems I had with working out how
> the inverse marker worked with relativization in Valaklwuuxa. The ends
> results of that bi of contemplating were... complicated. In a good,
> natlangy sort of way!
I haven't even thought about relative clauses yet. It'll be a mess for 
this language, since you can't have topics /inside/ relative clauses. I 
might just have it only possible to relativise on 'subject' position and 
just go with that.

> However, I am a bit lost on why you need a focus agreement marker. If
> the verb is going to have agreement morphology for one argument, I
> would expect it to be the subject, regardless of the subject's
> semantic role. And it doesn't seem like the agreement marker actually
> adds any extra information on syntactic structure or role assignment.
> Am I missing something in the later examples that ought to make this
> clearer?
ATM it's basically a straight-up aping of Old Japanese's kakari-musubi 
('placing and tying') system, which looks like this (using modern 
pronunciation because I'm lazy and don't remember half the reconstructions):

kore yo-shi
this good-FINAL
'this is good'

kore=koso yo-kere
this=FOC good-IZENKEI (don't worry about what that means, it's a mess)
'it's this that's good'

kore=zo yo-k.i
this=FOC good-ADNOM
'it's this that's good'

kore=ka yo-ki?
this=QFOC good-ADNOM
'is it this that's good?' ~= 'is this good?'

These examples show it with subjects, but in OJ, the presence of a focus 
marker on literally anything triggers the focus agreement marker - the 
verb's not agreeing with an argument, it's just agreeing with the fact 
that there's focus marking somewhere. The OJ system is somewhat 
additionally weird in that 1) focus agreement markers are all repurposed 
from elsewhere in the verbal morphology and 2) the focus marker / 
agreement marker pairs seem totally arbitrary - /=zo/ and /=koso/ seem 
to have basically the same semantics but still take different focus 
agreement markers, while /=zo/ and /=ka/ have very different semantics 
and both take the same.

Ýou're right in that it really doesn't seem to add much information. It 
may be silly to include it without some sort of diachronic motivation, 
and since the diachronic source of OJ kakari-musubi is entirely opaque 
and there's nothing else like it anywhere that I know of, it might not 
be worth it to bother. I like the idea of it, though, and it's 
uniqueness in the world's languages makes it very attractive to try and 
use somehow. Still, I imagine I'm missing the sort of real structural 
motivation for it - I don't know (we probably can't know) whether OJ is 
the most clear or helpful example of whatever the hell kind of system 
this really is, and since it and its Ryuukyuuan nieces (which have 
systems with no real fundamental differences) are all we've got, I'm 
largely stuck basically either copying it with no more than cosmetic 
alterations or just throwing it out entirely. If OJ's kakari-musubi 
system is a reduced or restructured version of the kind of system it 
represents, or even if it's a repurposing of something entirely 
different, that's totally inaccessible; and while it would be nice to do 
a language that's 'had this kind of thing from the start' as it were, I 
don't think anyone knows what that would look like.

If you do have an idea what might be done to make an interesting riff on 
kakari-musubi, I'd love to hear it.

>> Also oh my goodness I think I just spent two and a half hours writing this.
>> At least I get how it works now!
> Yup! That's how it goes!
>
> -l.
・ω・


---
このメールは、AVG によってウイルス チェックされています。
http://www.avg.com

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