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CONLANG  April 2018, Week 2

CONLANG April 2018, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Romanization Question

From:

Asher Jaffe <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 9 Apr 2018 19:03:27 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (98 lines)

Honestly, I think you should just go for it. Romanize it the way you want,
to hell with people who want to pronounce it differently. Of course, I
might write a story set in a city called Ílimaḥt, so it'll be interesting
to see how they parse that one. Also one of the main gods for the society
is Zèvyêsènò, so maybe I should rethink this. Anyway, I think "t" and
"th" for your T's, and remember that vowel diacritics are always an option.

On Sat, Apr 7, 2018 at 2:53 PM, The Scribbler <
[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Thanks, all. I suspect that ht in the middle of a word would be tolerable
> but word initial and throughout, might just leave it at t for both.
>
> I felt like the vowels had to be more likely to be fixable though and they
> are much more important to me than the t. I know I sometimes see the æ in
> older words, but not sure if it would be offputting to use a lot in names
> or if people usually still pronounce that like the a in cat. And of course,
> the word final schwa vs. ɛ. I seem to have a thing for ending words on
> short / reduced vowels, particularly in this language.
>
> On Saturday, April 7, 2018, 11:52:54 AM MDT, BPJ <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> Den 2018-04-06 kl. 21:25, skrev The Scribbler:
> > Thank you all for the help finalizing my phonology. I've got a couple
> thorny problems with romanizing that I was wondering if anyone had already
> solved.
> > This is a fictional naming language that will have American English as
> the likely primary reader's language (since that's my native), and where
> <th> generally means the fricative.
> >
> > I have an aspirated and a non-aspirated t and I'm not sure how to
> differentiate them while avoiding using th for the aspirated one. I could
> always just not differentiate t because it doesn't matter as much to me,
> but I like a fairly transparent romanization.
> > The one that matters a lot more to me because it really changes the
> pronunciation substantially is I have two phonemic vowels spelled <a>, /æ/
> and /ä/, and I'm not sure how to differentiate those. Is æ still usable in
> general English or would it just look weird without helping at all? This is
> one of the most common vowels in the whole language, so it'd be all over
> the names, including both vowels in the main character's.
> > Then there's word-final /ɛ/ vs. schwa, both currently spelled <e>. While
> that's an <i> or an <e> elsewhere in a word, /ɛ/ is not the automatic
> pronunciation for a word-final <i> to an English speaker, and if I use a
> diaeresis on one <e>, then it'll make it look like the other is silent,
> which it's definitely not. Word-final <a> is also pronounced as a schwa but
> that's normal, but even so, it's why I don't want to shove the word-final
> <e> over to <a>. They're both pronounced the same with vowel reduction, so
> I could, but vowels matter when declining, so I try to keep actually
> different vowels slightly separate if I can.
> > I also feel like I'm overthinking it, but haven't found my solution with
> all that overthinking it. Help?
> >
>
> Since Burmese has both /θ/ and /tʰ/, /ʃ/ and /sʰ/ romanizations
> traditionally render aspiration with ‹hC›, i.e. an ‹h› *before*
> the base letter: ‹hp ht hc hk hs›. This *kind of* makes sense
> since Burmese makes these distinctions and English expects [θ] and
> [ʃ] to be rendered with ‹th› and ‹sh› respectively, but for other
> languages romanizations happily render aspiration with ‹Ch›.
> People in India, for example, know full well that ‹th›, ‹ph› and
> ‹gh›, and probably also ‹dh›, run the risk of being more or less
> grossly mispronounced, but they still romanize them that way, and
> what's more they themselves pronounce English ‹th› as [t̪ʰ] and
> [d̪ʰ] with impunity (and they at least make the necessary
> distinctions, albeit not quite like a native anglophone would)!
>
> The fact is that those who don't care about language or phonetics
> are as likely as not to throw a book away on seeing something like
> ‹ht› or word-initial ‹tt›, and they just won't bother reading any
> pronunciation instructions. Those who care and know *will* read
> the instructions, see that ‹th› etc. are aspirates and probably
> pronounce them as their ordinary /t/ etc. as being the closest
> approximation they can do with reasonable effort. At the same time
> those who do care may think that ‹ht› or ‹tt› is a sign of
> unnecessary dependence on the peculiarities of English spelling.
>
> The lesson is that if you don't want the romanization to signal
> "weird, unpronounceable language here" you should avoid innovative
> digraphs rather more than potentially misleading familiar digraphs.
>
> I used to cringe at ‹Ch› for fricativization and palatalization
> for theoretical reasons, so that I used ‹c ç ð q x þ›, and before
> that ‹tj sj dd q/gg x/kk tt› rather than ‹ch sh gh kh› but if I'm
> to care about people's pronunciation the result of using the first
> two sets would be rather worse than the result of using the third
> set. Instead I use a dual system: digraphs when/if writing
> stories or when I've got reason to expect Unicode to get mangled
> and diacritics when writing about the language. (And I always used
> ‹hC› for voiceless liquids, approximants and nasals. For some
> irrational reason part of me still thinks that it's more OK to use
> ‹hC› for anything else than preaspiration than to use ‹Ch› for
> anything else than postaspiration, even though I know that Greek
> [tʰ] became [θ] just as much as Old Norse [xl] became [ɬ]! And I
> make a subphonemic distinction between ‹j› [dʒ] and ‹zh›/‹ž›
> because I think a word like ‹jdreg› just looks too weird! :-)
>

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