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CONLANG  April 2018, Week 2

CONLANG April 2018, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Conlang Numerals

From:

Melroch <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 8 Apr 2018 22:08:11 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (102 lines)

Knuckle or finger bone counting is *the* way base 12 counting has arisen in
human cultures. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finger-counting> describes
it thus:

"Finger-counting systems in use in many regions of Asia allow the counting
to 12 by using a single hand. The thumb acts as a pointer touching the
three finger bones of each finger in turn, starting with the outermost bone
of the little finger. One hand is used to count numbers up to 12. The other
hand is used to display the number of completed base-12s. This continues
until twelve dozen is reached, therefore 144 is counted."

I should have mentioned that the letters used as digits by the Sohlshan are
those letters of their alphabet which express consonants in the Chidilib
"dialect" without diacritics, viz. _h š f g d b m n y r w_. As you can see
the order of the letters is by place and manner of articulation, which
indicates that digits were invented rather late as a means of annotating
numbers in writing, the normal way of doing arithmetic being an abacus.[^1]
The zero sign was probably a still later addition but may be based on the
letter for _a_ which is similar to a lowercase Greek lambda, i.e. an X with
the upper right arm removed. I'm not sure how the higher positions were
annotated before the zero was invented, but I think that they used one of
two methods, either concurrently or at different period: the first one is
that they placed one of the three remaining letters _o a ä_ next to one of
the 1-11 letters to express the dozens, grosses and great grosses, so that
a dozen was _ho_, two dozens _šo_, a gross was _ha_ and a great gross
_hä_. (Note that these CV syllables were distinct from the numerals in the
Sohlob languages, but if such a notation was in use I guess they did use
/hi/ etc. for the units and actually used these syllables to compactly
express numbers aloud!) The other system used from one to three dots or a
bar below or above a letter to express from one to eight positions,
starting with one dot below a letter to indicate that it was a number, two
dots for the dozens and so on, up to eight positions, which likely was far
beyond what anyone needed to count at their level of civilization. As for
the syllable counting they could get up to six positions using all the
vowels in Classical Sohlob — but note that Chidilib, the Northern
postclassical language had only five vowels while Hïlïb, the Southern
postclassical language had eight vowels. We have to assume that Chidilshin
experts learned to articulate _ü_ and _ö_ if they needed to count up to
12^8! :-)

[^1]: I have moderate dyscalculia, manifested as difficulty memorizing
numbers and quantities, swapping digits around (e.g. reading 52 instead of
25), and virtual inability to commit numbers and mathematical concepts to
memory. I learned what little arithmetic I could on an abacus and still
often visualize an abacus to do calculations. To my surprise I just
discovered that that is a thing in Asia: <
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_abacus>.

Den sön 8 apr 2018 14:58Dave Rutan <[log in to unmask]> skrev:

> I actually found an interesting video on how (supposedly) the glyphs
> evolved for the Roman Numerals.  The greeks had a different system, much
> like others have decribed here.
>
> I've wondered how a base 12 system could come about with ten-fingered
> humans.  The knuckle idea could work.
>
> One of my languages if for an 8 fingered alien race, two hands of 4
> fingers.  Their original numbers were base 8, but it was strongly suggested
> to them that they adopt a base ten by their new friends from beyond the
> sky.  Even the numeral names were created for them.
>
> Dave Rutan
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Melroch <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Sun, 08 Apr 2018 07:44:32 -0400 (EDT)
> Subject: Re: Conlang Numerals
>
> A straight line for 1 is pretty natural. Roman numbers, the original form
> of the Indic ("Arabic") digits and Chinese characters all have a straight
> line for 1, with the difference that the Chinese line is horizontal, but
> then that script was traditionally written vertically! Maya numerals <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_numerals> used a dot for 1, but note
> that the original Indic system used a dot for zero. AFMOC (as for my own
> conlang) Sohlob uses the letters of its alphabet as digits, but 1 is
> unincidentally a vertical line -- also the letter for _h_ since the word
> 'one' is _hah_. Zero is not a letter but just a cross like X. Their numeral
> system is duodecimal (base 12), because they count on their knuckles,
> excluding the thumbs, rather than on their fingers.
>
> Den sön 8 apr 2018 00:01Dave Rutan <[log in to unmask]> skrev:
>
> > Pilgres,If you create numerals to go along with the numbers you create in
> > a given conlang, do you try to use some kind of logic for them, or just
> > basically create glyphs that 'look good'?  I can't get away from using a
> > vertical straight line, or something similar for '1'. And then there's
> the
> > equally difficult '0'.  I've made numeral glyphs  for 4 diverse
> languages,
> > though two are from the same planet, and the glyph for '1' is always a
> > vertical straight line.
> > Thanks,Dave Rutan
> >
> > --
> > https://koplushian.wordpress.com
> >
>
> --
> https://koplushian.wordpress.com
>

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