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CONLANG  April 2018, Week 2

CONLANG April 2018, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Conlang Numerals

From:

Melroch <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 8 Apr 2018 22:49:15 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (116 lines)

I wrote:

>We have to assume that Chidilshin experts learned to
>articulate _ü_ and _ö_ if they needed to count up to 12^8! :-)

That should of course have been _ï_ [ɨ/ɯ], _ü_ [y] and _ö_ [ø], since
Chidilib had only _i, e, a, o, u_, having merged _ï_ with _i_ and never
developed _ü, ö_.

Den mån 9 apr 2018 00:08Melroch <[log in to unmask]> skrev:

> Knuckle or finger bone counting is *the* way base 12 counting has arisen
> in human cultures. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finger-counting>
> describes it thus:
>
> "Finger-counting systems in use in many regions of Asia allow the counting
> to 12 by using a single hand. The thumb acts as a pointer touching the
> three finger bones of each finger in turn, starting with the outermost bone
> of the little finger. One hand is used to count numbers up to 12. The other
> hand is used to display the number of completed base-12s. This continues
> until twelve dozen is reached, therefore 144 is counted."
>
> I should have mentioned that the letters used as digits by the Sohlshan
> are those letters of their alphabet which express consonants in the
> Chidilib "dialect" without diacritics, viz. _h š f g d b m n y r w_. As
> you can see the order of the letters is by place and manner of
> articulation, which indicates that digits were invented rather late as a
> means of annotating numbers in writing, the normal way of doing arithmetic
> being an abacus.[^1] The zero sign was probably a still later addition but
> may be based on the letter for _a_ which is similar to a lowercase Greek
> lambda, i.e. an X with the upper right arm removed. I'm not sure how the
> higher positions were annotated before the zero was invented, but I think
> that they used one of two methods, either concurrently or at different
> period: the first one is that they placed one of the three remaining
> letters _o a ä_ next to one of the 1-11 letters to express the dozens,
> grosses and great grosses, so that a dozen was _ho_, two dozens _šo_, a
> gross was _ha_ and a great gross _hä_. (Note that these CV syllables were
> distinct from the numerals in the Sohlob languages, but if such a notation
> was in use I guess they did use /hi/ etc. for the units and actually used
> these syllables to compactly express numbers aloud!) The other system used
> from one to three dots or a bar below or above a letter to express from one
> to eight positions, starting with one dot below a letter to indicate that
> it was a number, two dots for the dozens and so on, up to eight positions,
> which likely was far beyond what anyone needed to count at their level of
> civilization. As for the syllable counting they could get up to six
> positions using all the vowels in Classical Sohlob — but note that
> Chidilib, the Northern postclassical language had only five vowels while
> Hïlïb, the Southern postclassical language had eight vowels. We have to
> assume that Chidilshin experts learned to articulate _ü_ and _ö_ if they
> needed to count up to 12^8! :-)
>
> [^1]: I have moderate dyscalculia, manifested as difficulty memorizing
> numbers and quantities, swapping digits around (e.g. reading 52 instead of
> 25), and virtual inability to commit numbers and mathematical concepts to
> memory. I learned what little arithmetic I could on an abacus and still
> often visualize an abacus to do calculations. To my surprise I just
> discovered that that is a thing in Asia: <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_abacus>.
>
> Den sön 8 apr 2018 14:58Dave Rutan <[log in to unmask]> skrev:
>
>> I actually found an interesting video on how (supposedly) the glyphs
>> evolved for the Roman Numerals.  The greeks had a different system, much
>> like others have decribed here.
>>
>> I've wondered how a base 12 system could come about with ten-fingered
>> humans.  The knuckle idea could work.
>>
>> One of my languages if for an 8 fingered alien race, two hands of 4
>> fingers.  Their original numbers were base 8, but it was strongly suggested
>> to them that they adopt a base ten by their new friends from beyond the
>> sky.  Even the numeral names were created for them.
>>
>> Dave Rutan
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Melroch <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Sent: Sun, 08 Apr 2018 07:44:32 -0400 (EDT)
>> Subject: Re: Conlang Numerals
>>
>> A straight line for 1 is pretty natural. Roman numbers, the original form
>> of the Indic ("Arabic") digits and Chinese characters all have a straight
>> line for 1, with the difference that the Chinese line is horizontal, but
>> then that script was traditionally written vertically! Maya numerals <
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_numerals> used a dot for 1, but note
>> that the original Indic system used a dot for zero. AFMOC (as for my own
>> conlang) Sohlob uses the letters of its alphabet as digits, but 1 is
>> unincidentally a vertical line -- also the letter for _h_ since the word
>> 'one' is _hah_. Zero is not a letter but just a cross like X. Their
>> numeral
>> system is duodecimal (base 12), because they count on their knuckles,
>> excluding the thumbs, rather than on their fingers.
>>
>> Den sön 8 apr 2018 00:01Dave Rutan <[log in to unmask]> skrev:
>>
>> > Pilgres,If you create numerals to go along with the numbers you create
>> in
>> > a given conlang, do you try to use some kind of logic for them, or just
>> > basically create glyphs that 'look good'?  I can't get away from using a
>> > vertical straight line, or something similar for '1'. And then there's
>> the
>> > equally difficult '0'.  I've made numeral glyphs  for 4 diverse
>> languages,
>> > though two are from the same planet, and the glyph for '1' is always a
>> > vertical straight line.
>> > Thanks,Dave Rutan
>> >
>> > --
>> > https://koplushian.wordpress.com
>> >
>>
>> --
>> https://koplushian.wordpress.com
>>
>

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