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CONLANG  April 2018, Week 3

CONLANG April 2018, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Pronoun systems in your conlangs

From:

Dirk Elzinga <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 16 Apr 2018 11:32:38 -0600

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (208 lines)

Not that anyone will notice (or care), but the inverse predicate glosses
from my post are incorrect. They should be:

wa= l- kippï -ka  (1<3= INV- poking -IMPF) 'he is poking me'
ku= l- kippï -ka (2<3= INV- poking -IMPF) 'he is poking you'
lï= l- kippï -ka (2<1= TRANS- poking -IMPF) 'I am poking you'
l- kippï -ka (INV- poking -IMPF) 'he is being poked by him'

And now I'm going to go grade papers.

On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 11:18 AM, Dirk Elzinga <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

> AFMCL ...
>
> Miapimoquitch doesn't have pronouns as such. There are three person
> markers that I think of as "vectors", in that they point the predicate
> toward or away from speech act participants. For intransitive predicates
> they are wa= 'activity / state of first person' and ku= 'activity / state
> of
> second person'. Third person is unmarked.
>
> Transitive predicates are marked with a transitivizing prefix n-. The
> person markers are interpreted a bit differently on transitive
> predicates:
> wa= is 'first person acting on third person (1>3)' and ku= is 'second
> person acting on third person (2>3)'. Third person acting on another
> third person (3>3') is unmarked, though a predicate with the transitive
> prefix and no person prefixes can be seen as covertly marking third
> person acting on a different third person. For the interaction of first
> and
> second persons the marker is lï= 'second person acting on first person
> (2>1)'. (The transitive marker is still present even though there is no
> ambiguity that the predicate is transitive with the person marker lï=.)
>
> That's direct transitivity. There is also inverse transitivity, marked
> with l-
> instead of n-. In the inverse, the person "vectors" point in the opposite
> directions. So wa= is 'third person acting on first person' (1<3), ku= is
> 'third person acting on second person (2<3)', and lï= is 'first person
> acting on second person' (2<1). (Note the arrows pointing in the other
> direction in the abbreviations.)
>
> Here are some examples of their use:
>
> wa= n- kippï -ka (1>3= TRANS- poking -IMPF) 'I am poking him'
> ku= n- kippï -ka (2>3= TRANS- poking -IMPF) 'you are poking him'
> lï= n- kippï -ka (2>1= TRANS- poking -IMPF) 'you are poking me'
> n- kippï -ka  (TRANS- poking -IMPF)'he is poking him'
>
> wa= l- kippï -ka  (1<3= INV- poking -IMPF)'I am poking him'
> ku= l- kippï -ka (2<3= INV- poking -IMPF) 'you are poking him'
> lï= l- kippï -ka (2<1= TRANS- poking -IMPF) 'you are poking me'
> l- kippï -ka (INV- poking -IMPF) 'he is being poked by him'
>
>
> Number is handled in the predicate word itself, and is something like
> pluractionality rather than number proper. Paucal, distributive, and
> collective numbers are marked on the predicate word by various kinds
> of reduplication; singular is unmarked. Paucal means "a few, a few
> times, in a few places", distributive means "a lot (scattered in various
> locations)" or "many times", and collective means "many events seen
> as a single activity; a group; parts comprising a system / whole". A
> clause in the paucal such as n-pipitï (TRANS-see:PAUC) can mean 'he
> saw a few of them' or 'he saw it a few times' or 'a few of them saw it' or
> 'a few of them saw it a few times', etc.
>
>
> As a pronoun system it's pretty lean, but I really like how it interacts
> with
> predicate categories of transitivity and pluractionality to get a wide
> range
> of meanings that can be ambiguous in somewhat unfamiliar ways.
>
> Dirk
>
> On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 8:00 AM, Katerina <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> I have reworked the T'elχ personal pronouns to look like this:
>>
>> I person:
>>
>> *tem**χ *we (collective entity)
>> *ymma *one of us [no additional distinctions]
>> *ym**ɫ *one of us [speaker]
>> *om**ɫ* one of us [non-speaker]
>>
>> II person:
>>
>> *tețχ *you (collective entity)
>> *ywwa *one of you [no additional distinctions]
>> *yw**ɫ *one of you [interlocutor]
>> *ow**ɫ* one of you [non-interlocutor]
>>
>> III person:
>>
>> *ifsx *he/she/it
>> *ifsa'n* they
>> *vi**ŋχ *they (collective entity)
>> *vu *one of them
>>
>> In addition, *ym**ɫ/**om**ɫ* and *yw**ɫ/**ow**ɫ *could be used with a
>> distal - proximal meaning and denote either physical distance or lack of
>> familiarity/relevance, but this would be much more rare.
>>
>> In some situations, *ywwa/yw**ɫ* could be regarded as a rough equivalent
>> of
>> the singular "you", but *ymma/ym**ɫ* does not even come close to the
>> meaning of "I". Right now I'm wondering whether to have Azila create a
>> proper first person singular pronoun upon her re-entry into the collective
>> to signify the shift in her self-perception (the fact that she had
>> retained
>> partial individuality) and to facilitate communication with humans, who
>> would be more comfortable if the T'elχ language had an equivalent for "I".
>>
>> 1st and 2nd person pronouns do not have the full four-way number
>> distinction (singular, plural, collective, exceptional) present in T'elχ
>> nouns, only a two-way distinction between collective pronouns (which refer
>> to a body of several units, understood as a whole) and exceptionals (which
>> single out a specific unit within the collective while emphasizing that it
>> is still an integral element in a greater structure), which is a direct
>> consequence of theT'elχ could not conceive of a sapient entity capable of
>> communication as anything other than a superorganism such as themselves.
>> The exceptionals have no equivalent in the other languages in our universe
>> and Azila's attempts to translate the meaning into what once was her
>> native
>> language would result in her referring to herself in the third person as
>> "this body/unit/element", which would sound a lot more coarse and
>> disturbing than she had intended. Most of the time, though, she would
>> simply refer to herself in the plural and it'd make all the more sense
>> given that the question of who or what she actually is open - she may be
>> less an echo of the woman who used to inhabit her physical shell, and more
>> a splinter of the greater collective consciousness that was able to gain a
>> certain degree of self-awareness but was bound to continue perceiving
>> itself as incomplete/broken and to have what my co-author has called
>> "phantom mind pains".
>>
>> I found the idea of exceptionals ("one of...") accidentally on another
>> conlanging forum and thought it was perfect for the T'elχ.
>>
>> Peace,
>>
>> Cathy
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 10:54 AM, R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > On 29/11/2016 02:31, Herman Miller wrote:
>> >
>> >> Katerina wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Hello all,
>> >>>
>> >>> While writing a response to the "Languages for
>> >>> collective species" topic I'd started the other day, I
>> >>> began to wonder what the personal pronoun systems in
>> >>> your conlangs were like.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> Jarda doesn't distinguish between singular and plural,
>> >> even in the pronouns.
>> >>
>> >
>> > Piashi (written as _Bax_), the latest version of my
>> > briefscript project before I abandoned it also did not
>> > distinguish between singular and plural in nouns or
>> > pronouns.  But ...
>> >
>> > It does have inclusive and exclusive "we", but those are
>> >>  better analyzed as 1st+2nd and 1st+3rd pronouns, not 1st
>> >>  person plural.
>> >>
>> >
>> > It did not do this, but did follow Jespersen's observation
>> > in "An International Language" (1928), that:
>> > {quote}
>> > ... "we" does not mean several "I's", but "I + someone else
>> > or several others" ... '
>> > {unquote}
>> >
>> > It's personal pronouns were:
>> > WRITTEN SPOKEN MEANING
>> >    v     /mi/    I, me
>> >    c     /ci/    we, us
>> >    q     /ku/    you (thou, thee, ye, you)
>> >    t     /ta/    he, him, she, her, it, they, them [generic]
>> >    s     /sa/    he, him, she, her, it, they, them [near]
>> >    l     /la/    he, him, she, her, it, they, them [far]
>> >
>> > That is 'near' or 'far' in time, place or reference; _s_
>> > could also mean 'the latter' and _l_ 'the former'
>> >
>> > The personal pronouns of Outidic and TAKE are the usual 1st,
>> > 2nd & 3rd persons, singular and plural, pattern of many
>> > languages.
>> >
>> > Ray
>> >
>>
>
>

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August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
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June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
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August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
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June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
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October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
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September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
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June 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
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March 1999, Week 3
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February 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 1
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October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
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September 1998, Week 5
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September 1998, Week 3

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