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CONLANG  April 2018, Week 4

CONLANG April 2018, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Syllable Structure

From:

Aidan Aannestad <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 26 Apr 2018 09:59:28 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (189 lines)

I would agree with this analysis! I don't know that I even consider 
approximants to be 'liquids' - approximants are just vowels used outside 
the nucleus. There's a further sonority cline inside vowels, with higher 
vowels being least sonorous (and thus most likely to be used outside the 
nucleus as approximants).

Interesting that you've split onset K into coda FP. I wonder what the 
theoretical motivation for that would be. It seems intuitively 
reasonable. English 'angst's' is the largest coda I can think of - it 
has all of (Y)NFPS (though the Y is non-phonemic, and you can argue 
about the morphological status of -'s making it somewhat special).


On 2018/04/26 9:27, Melroch wrote:
> I would say that liquids actually rank above nasals on the sonority scale,
> and approximants above non-approximant liquids. You are much more likely to
> find monosyllabic #NLV or VLN# than monosyllabic #LNV or VNL#. In fact NL
> sequences are often the victims of plosive anaptyxis, so they are
> dispreferred in general.
>
> I would venture to say that for languages which permit complex onsets
> and/or codas one might generalize a maximum syllable structure like
>
>      #SKNLYVYLNFPS#
>
> where
>
>      S = sibilant
>      P = plosive
>      F = fricative
>      K = P and F other than S
>      N = nasal
>      L = liquid
>      Y = approximant
>
> Usually most of the slots other than V are empty of course, and some
> restrictions are almost universal, like in KN the N is usually [n] and the
> K is usually not a coronal, that SP is more common than SF, that NP# is
> usually homorganic, that KN and Kl are usually not homorganic, that NL is
> unusual.
>
> Note the symmetry! Note also that for some reason sibilants are different
> from other fricatives, on the verge of being syllabic.
>
> The onset of Icelandic _strjúka_ 'stroke' is both near the practical
> maximum and illustrative of the pattern.
>
>
> Den ons 25 apr 2018 17:20Aidan Aannestad <[log in to unmask]> skrev:
>
>> Syllable structure is actually a fascinating and complex topic; one
>> which I'm sure I don't fully understand. (I mostly work with CV(V)
>> structures in my own languages!) I'll try and summarise a bit of what I
>> remember about it - and hopefully write something that's useful to
>> conlangers of all levels.
>>
>> Syllable structure is, in short, what is allowed in a syllable, and
>> where. It's typically schematised as a series of capital letters, where
>> C means 'a consonant', V means 'a vowel', and parentheses indicate
>> optionality. However, there's much, much more complexity than a simple
>> statement such as 'this language allows (C)(C)V(V)(C)' would imply. For
>> a brand new conlanger, that's about as far as you need to go, though -
>> knowing to schematise it and fit your words to these structures, and
>> further knowing that you mostly need a vowel or something acting like
>> one in every syllable, is quite enough for a simple conlang.
>>
>> You can go much farther than that, though.
>>
>> At its most basic, a syllable is divided into two parts - an /onset/ and
>> a /rime/. The onset is everything before the vowel; the rime is the
>> vowel and everything after it. The rime is further divisible into the
>> /nucleus/, which is the vowel or whatever's acting kind of like one, and
>> the /coda/, which is the consonants following the vowel. Every syllable
>> at minimum needs a nucleus, though it doesn't necessarily need a vowel
>> to be the nucleus - see English 'doesn't' /dɜz.nt/, which has /n/ as its
>> second syllable's nucleus.
>>
>> Typically - with a few exceptions - syllables are organised by what's
>> called /sonority/, which is basically the perceptual salience or
>> 'loudness' of sounds. The nucleus is the sonority peak, and sonority
>> falls off towards the edges - indeed, in some theories, a syllable is
>> explicitly defined as being the space between sonority low points. The
>> sonority hierarchy is largely this, from most to least:
>> - Vowels
>> - Sonorant consonants (liquids and nasals)
>> - Voiced fricatives
>> - Voiceless fricatives
>> - Stops
>> Languages can vary on how far down the hierarchy a nucleus can be - some
>> languages only allow vowels, English allows vowels and sonorants, and a
>> couple Berber languages are famous for apparently allowing all the way
>> down to stops. Within complex onsets and codas - again with a few
>> exceptions - consonants are expected to become more sonorant closer to
>> the nucleus. For example, the English word /trend/ exemplifies this -
>> /t/ is less sonorous than /ɹ/, and /n/ is more sonorous than /d/. The
>> biggest exceptions to this generalisation are /s z/ (and other coronal
>> sibilants), which seem to be allowed outside lower-sonority consonants
>> on both ends in quite a few languages, English being one - /strand/ is
>> perfectly valid, even though the /s/ occurs outside the less-sonorous
>> /t/. In some languages, word edges may allow for /extrasyllabic/
>> consonants, which don't quite fit in a syllable - this allows for
>> English words like 'act' with two stops in a row, which would be invalid
>> inside a word without the /t/ becoming the onset of the next syllable.
>>
>> Sometimes the string of sounds provided by building a word from
>> morphemes has sequences that can't be syllabified - for example, if you
>> only allow CV and you get a word with two consonants in a row, you have
>> a problem. This is where things like epenthesis come in - sounds can be
>> added in phonologically to help make things work out right. You might
>> find that a disallowed CC sequence is broken up by having a 'default'
>> vowel like /a/ or /ə/ inserted between the two consonants, or that it's
>> broken up by inserting a copy of a neighbouring vowel. Other repair
>> strategies involve just deleting one of the consonants, or having them
>> merge somehow (eg have /nt/ become /d/, with /n/'s voicing but /t/'s
>> stop-ness).
>>
>> We often talk of syllables as having /weight/, which mostly means the
>> amount of stuff put into the rime. Weight is typically quantified into
>> units called /morae/, which are (basically) a measure of the time it
>> takes to say a certain syllable. Typically, one V or CV (or CCV etc)
>> syllable is one mora; (C)VV and (C)VC are two morae, and (C)VVC is
>> three; though exactly how things are counted can vary by language, and
>> many languages distinguish between one ('light') and more-than-one
>> ('heavy') and don't really care about exactly how many. Codas with more
>> than one consonant may or may not count for more morae than the simple
>> presence of a coda would add.
>>
>> Weight is relevant in several ways. First, languages can have maximum
>> syllable weights. For example, a language may allow (C)VV and (C)VC but
>> not (C)VVC, even though it does "have phonemic vowel length" - you can't
>> simply switch out a short vowel for a long vowel or diphthong, because
>> long vowels and diphthongs are associated with more structural positions
>> than a short vowel is. You may also find position-based weight
>> restrictions - for example, the last syllable of any word may be
>> prohibited from being heavy; or it may allow an extrasyllabic consonant,
>> as in Arabic, which allows (C)VVC only word-finally and nowhere else.
>> Second, weight has various prosodic consequences. In a language with
>> phonemic tone, a heavy syllable - especially one with a complex nucleus
>> rather than just a coda - provides more morae for tones to attach to,
>> and contour tones may require or cause a vowel to be long to fit all the
>> parts of the tone. In a language with phonemic stress, stress tends to
>> correlate with weight, and the language might have rules about heavy
>> syllables attracting stress (Latin's stress rule works this way), or
>> stressed syllables acquiring weight (one analysis has Norwegian and
>> Swedish doing this). Since stress (including secondary stress) tends to
>> proceed on an alternating stressed-unstressed-stressed-etc pattern, the
>> syllables between stresses (again, including secondary stress) may be
>> obligatorily light - or heavy syllables may cause deviations from the
>> alternating pattern (as seems to happen in English).
>>
>> Going further down the rabbit hole (and this is the part I suggest
>> beginning conlangers really stop before), you can begin to explore
>> restrictions on what consonants can occur where in a syllable. For
>> example, codas may lose voicing distinctions, or onsets may restrict the
>> combinations of certain sounds. Autosegmental phonology explains this
>> through the concept of 'feature licensing', where phonemic features are
>> assigned to the syllable as a whole, and codas may license additional
>> features. My conlang Emihtazuu only licenses nasality as a coda feature,
>> which means that codas can only be a nasal with no place specification
>> (which it has to get from a following stop) or a default consonant /h/.
>> This is used to explain why English allows /tr/ as an onset but not /tl/
>> - the /l/ requires a laterality specification that apparently can't
>> coöccur with /t/ (but can with /p k/).
>>
>> /Even/ further down the rabbit hole starts to get into things like the
>> autosegmental concept of 'timing tier' / 'skeletal tier', and things
>> like vowels attaching to consonant slots, or stranger things like
>> consonant slots that are empty but still demonstrably there, and some
>> yet stranger things. If you want to know more about those, just go read
>> the book (John Goldsmith's /Autosegmental and Metrical Phonology/) -
>> it's worth every cent you'll spend on it.
>>
>> I hope that's not overwhelmingly much information! Ignore as much of
>> this as you feel you need to, and just come back to it as you gain more
>> familiarity with linguistic concepts.
>>
>>
>> On 2018/04/24 21:57, Space Unicorn J wrote:
>>> This is simple, I know a little about this but I wanted to know if
>> someone
>>> could help me to understand Syllable Structure and tell me some tips and
>>> that, I think it’s a very interesting topic.
>>>
>>> I would like to know how to use this and examples of natural languages
>> and
>>> your Conlangs!!!
>>>
>>> Thx.

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July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
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July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
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June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
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May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
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April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
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January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
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November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
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October 2006, Week 1
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September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
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August 2006, Week 3
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August 2006, Week 1
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July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
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May 2006, Week 5
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May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
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February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
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January 2006, Week 3
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January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
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September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
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July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
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February 2005, Week 1
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January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
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December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
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November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
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September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
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July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
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April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
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March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
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December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
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June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
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May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
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December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
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September 2001, Week 3
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September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 1
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May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
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March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
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November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
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June 2000, Week 5
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March 2000, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
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December 1999, Week 3
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December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
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November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
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January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
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