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TEI-L  May 2018

TEI-L May 2018

Subject:

Re: AW: subtypes of types

From:

Martin Holmes <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Martin Holmes <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 29 May 2018 08:41:48 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (374 lines)

Hi Elisa,

Most of my projects now have an ODD build process which uses XSLT to 
harvest (say) all the xml:ids of <person> elements in the project and 
uses them to populate the valList items of persName/@ref, before 
rebuilding the schema. That means that as long as the schema gets 
regenerated regularly, you get automatic content completion and sound 
constraints, and all the user has to do is to add a new <person> and 
then regenerate the schema to make their new person available. This is 
an example of an ant build file that does this:

<https://revision.hcmc.uvic.ca/svn/london/db/data/utilities/buildODD.xml>

and this is an XSLT file that processes the ODD to incorporate various 
taxonomies from the dataset:

<https://revision.hcmc.uvic.ca/svn/london/db/data/utilities/taxonomies_to_odd_fragments.xsl>

Cheers,
Martin



On 2018-05-29 04:56 AM, Elisa Beshero-Bondar wrote:
> Gerrit-- I'm eager to experiment with Epischemas, and I agree that it 
> would be great to see these implemented in ODDs, since content 
> completion is certainly helpful. One of my projects includes a giant 
> file or prosopography lists containing hundreds of xml:ids, and my 
> Schematron solutions, while quick for me to implement, don't necessarily 
> help contributors to the project to select the right ids for the right 
> elements.
> 
> One thing I need to implement in my ODD for this giant project is a good 
> mechanism for updating the ODD with new ids as they're added (so I don't 
> have to do this myself). XSLT can do the job, but so can 
> Schematron--though without anything like content completion. I wonder if 
> the NVDL might be a good solution to sit alongside the ODD? I'm curious 
> to learn more about this as I'm still trying to find the right solution 
> for this big project!
> 
> Cheers,
> Elisa
> 
> On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 5:45 AM, Imsieke, Gerrit, le-tex 
> <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
> 
>     Hi Sean,
> 
>     I agree if the presupposition is to maintain an ODD in the first place.
> 
>     However, there are people (like us, many of our customers, or DFG
>     [1]) who want to have some baseline compliance with a widespread TEI
>     customization and then add their constraints. These people sometimes
>     don’t deal with ODD at all, and I think it isn’t yet illegal to do so.
> 
>     On the other hand, it is desirable to express co-occurrence
>     constraints in ODD, too. This is what I was trying to say in the
>     last paragraph of the previous message. Once there are means for
>     expressing these constraints in ODD, users should be able to have an
>     option to generate either
>     – Embedded Schematron rules,
>     – an External Schematron file,
>     – both Schematron variants, but with Schematron Quick Fixes, or
>     – a base schema with Epischemas, wrapped in NVDL
>     – a imported RNG schema with overrides to accommodate the
>     constraints (this may become messy though – as Eric van der Vlist
>     wrote, restricting grammar-like schemas is not easy if they lack the
>     granularity [2]).
> 
>     As I said, the epischema approach has the advantage of allowing
>     content completion out of the box, which is quite useful in many
>     situations.
> 
>     Users who rely on ODD to maintain their customizations need to wait
>     until someone proposes amendments for expressing co-occurrence
>     constraints in ODD and until someone adapts the schema-generating
>     XSLT in order to support epischemas.
> 
>     Gerrit
> 
>     [1]
>     http://www.dfg.de/download/pdf/foerderung/antragstellung/forschungsdaten/foerderkriterien_editionen_literaturwissenschaft.pdf
>     <http://www.dfg.de/download/pdf/foerderung/antragstellung/forschungsdaten/foerderkriterien_editionen_literaturwissenschaft.pdf>
>     [2]
>     http://books.xmlschemata.org/relaxng/relax-CHP-12-SECT-1.html#relax-CHP-12-SECT-1.3
>     <http://books.xmlschemata.org/relaxng/relax-CHP-12-SECT-1.html#relax-CHP-12-SECT-1.3>
> 
> 
>     On 29.05.2018 11:11, Winslow, Sean Michael ([log in to unmask]
>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>) wrote:
> 
>         Gerrit,
> 
>         Adding the constraints in Relax NG seems to defeat the purpose
>         of making an ODD, doesn't it? Suddenly, one document does not do
>         it all, and two documents are needed, one to describe the
>         document as TEI and document it, and one to add the constraints
>         to an already-transformed version of the first. It also risks
>         someone getting their hands on and transforming the ODD without
>         the constraints.
> 
>         Best,
> 
>         -Sean
> 
>         Dr Sean M Winslow
>         Zentrum für Informationsmodellierung
>         eMail: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> 
> 
> 
>         -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>         Von: TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list
>         <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> Im
>         Auftrag von Imsieke, Gerrit, le-tex
>         Gesendet: Dienstag, 29. Mai 2018 01:19
>         An: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>         Betreff: Re: subtypes of types
> 
>         Hi Elisa and Sean,
> 
>         Co-occurrence constraints are in fact a job for MY favorite
>         schema language, and that is Relax NG.
> 
>         ODD does not (yet) provide native co-occurrence constraints
>         (apart from embedded Schematron), and this is where I, as a TEI
>         outsider and as a native Relax NG speaker, recommend filtering a
>         base TEI schema by another Relax NG schema that permits
>         everything except the type/subtype constraints.
> 
>         A benefit of this approach is: In contrast to Schematron (that
>         only checks validity retroactively), it gives you excellent
>         content completion in oXygen (versions 19.0 or newer).
> 
>         This is the NVDL that implements your constraint on top of a TEI
>         allPlus base schema:
>         https://subversion.le-tex.de/common/schema/tei-cssa/tei_allPlus_subtypes.nvdl
>         <https://subversion.le-tex.de/common/schema/tei-cssa/tei_allPlus_subtypes.nvdl>
>         If you are using oXygen, you can prepend the following xml-model
>         PI to your document:
>         <?xml-model
>         href="https://subversion.le-tex.de/common/schema/tei-cssa/tei_allPlus_subtypes.nvdl
>         <https://subversion.le-tex.de/common/schema/tei-cssa/tei_allPlus_subtypes.nvdl>"
> 
>               type="application/xml"
>         schematypens="http://purl.oclc.org/dsdl/nvdl/ns/structure/1.0
>         <http://purl.oclc.org/dsdl/nvdl/ns/structure/1.0>"?>
> 
>         You see in the NVDL that you can refer to any base schema, and
>         this is another nice property of this approach: It is
>         orthogonal, it does not depend on knowledge of the inner
>         building blocks (named patterns) of your base schema.
>         (Schematron, of course, is also orthogonal to the base schema in
>         that it does not need to know about the names and the
>         granularity of the base schema patterns.)
> 
>         This NVDL is an example of the “epischema” approach that I
>         presented at XML Prague 2017:
>         http://archive.xmlprague.cz/2017/files/presentations/epischema/index.html#/
>         <http://archive.xmlprague.cz/2017/files/presentations/epischema/index.html#/>
> 
>         The epischema itself is at
>         https://subversion.le-tex.de/common/schema/tei-cssa/subtypes.rng
>         <https://subversion.le-tex.de/common/schema/tei-cssa/subtypes.rng>
>         Of course it is a bit contrived, but no more so than your example ;)
> 
>         I’m aware that most TEI users will only start using this
>         approach when they can generate a complete NVDL with constraints
>         from an ODD specification. I’m afraid that finding an adequate
>         “grammar constraint”
>         vocabulary for ODD may already be difficult, let alone
>         generating from ODD the RNG epischemas that implement these
>         constraints.
> 
>         Gerrit
> 
> 
>         On 28.05.2018 17:26, Elisa Beshero-Bondar wrote:
> 
>             Hi Sean,
>             This is a job for my favorite type of schema language,
>             Schematron, and
>             it's available inside ODD, though a little tricky to write.
>             Schematron
>             allows for definitions of schema rules based on XPath
>             relationships,
>             so you basically write a test to say when your @type
>             attribute is set
>             to "A", the @subtype on the same element must be A1, A2, or
>             A3. I'll
>             post an example or two, here--it helps to see how these are
>             defined in
>             a functioning ODD, and we really need more available examples of
>             Schematron use in ODDs.
> 
>             Cheers,
>             Elisa
> 
> 
> 
>             On Mon, May 28, 2018 at 11:11 AM, Winslow, Sean Michael
>             ([log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>             <mailto:[log in to unmask]
>             <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>)
>             <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>             <mailto:[log in to unmask]
>             <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>> wrote:
> 
>                   All,____
> 
>                   __ __
> 
>                   If in TEI, if I have a list of @type values:____
> 
>                   A, B, C____
> 
>                   And @subtypes of those values:____
> 
>                   A: A1, A2, A3____
> 
>                   B: B4, B5____
> 
>                   C: C6, C7____
> 
>                   How do I represent the link between the @subtype and
>             @type in the
>                   ODD? There doesn’t seem to be an example in the
>             documentation that I
>                   can find.____
> 
>                   __ __
> 
>                   <valListtype="closed">
>                   <valItemident="A">
>                   <desc>A has three subtypes, A1, A2, A3</desc>
>                   </valItem>
>                   <valItemident="B">
>                   <desc>A has two subtypes, B4, B5</desc>
>                   </valItem>
>                   <valItemident="C">
>                   <desc>A has two subtypes, C6, C7</desc>
>                   </valItem>____
> 
>                   </valList>____
> 
>                   __ __
> 
>                   I wpould think I would nest a valList inside the
>             relevant valItem,
>                   but this does not seem to be allowed by valItem. ____
> 
>                   __ __
> 
>                   <valListtype="closed">
>                   <valItemident="A">
>                   <desc>A has three subtypes, A1, A2, A3</desc>____
> 
>                   <attDefident="subtype"mode="replace">____
> 
>                   <valListtype="closed">
>                   <valItemident="A1">
>                   </valItem>
>                   <valItemident="A2">
>                   </valItem>
>                   <valItemident="A3">
>                   </valItem>____
> 
>                   </valList>____
> 
>                   </attDef>
>                   </valItem>____
> 
>                   __ __
> 
>                   Gives : element "attDef" not allowed here; expected
>             the element
>                   end-tag or element "altIdent", "desc", "equiv",
>             "gloss", "paramList"
>                   or "remarks"____
> 
>                   __ __
> 
>                   What is the intended way to define @subtype lists?____
> 
>                   __ __
> 
>                   Many Thanks,____
> 
>                   __ __
> 
>                   -Sean____
> 
>                   __ __
> 
>                   __ __
> 
>                   Dr Sean M Winslow
>                   Zentrum für Informationsmodellierung
>                   Austrian Centre for Digital Humanities
>                   Karl-Franzens-Universität Graz
>                   A-8010 Graz | Elisabethstraße 59
>                 
>               <https://maps.google.com/?q=Elisabethstra%C3%9Fe+59&entry=gmail&source <https://maps.google.com/?q=Elisabethstra%C3%9Fe+59&entry=gmail&source>
>             =g>/III
> 
>                   Tel: +43 316 380 5772
>                   eMail: [log in to unmask]
>             <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>             <mailto:[log in to unmask]
>             <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>                   Web: informationsmodellierung.uni-graz.at
>             <http://informationsmodellierung.uni-graz.at>
>                   <http://informationsmodellierung.uni-graz.at
>             <http://informationsmodellierung.uni-graz.at>>____
> 
>                   __ __
> 
> 
> 
> 
>             --
>             Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD
>             Director, Center for the Digital Text | Associate Professor
>             of English
>             University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg | Humanities Division
>             150 Finoli Drive
>             Greensburg, PA  15601  USA
>             E-mail: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>             <mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> Development site:
>             http://newtfire.org <http://newtfire.org/>
> 
> 
>         --
>         Gerrit Imsieke
>         Geschäftsführer / Managing Director
>         le-tex publishing services GmbH
>         Weissenfelser Str. 84, 04229 Leipzig, Germany Phone +49 341
>         355356 110, Fax +49 341 355356 510 [log in to unmask]
>         <mailto:[log in to unmask]>, http://www.le-tex.de
> 
>         Registergericht / Commercial Register: Amtsgericht Leipzig
>         Registernummer / Registration Number: HRB 24930
> 
>         Geschäftsführer / Managing Directors:
>         Gerrit Imsieke, Svea Jelonek, Thomas Schmidt
> 
> 
>     -- 
>     Gerrit Imsieke
>     Geschäftsführer / Managing Director
>     le-tex publishing services GmbH
>     Weissenfelser Str. 84, 04229 Leipzig, Germany
>     Phone +49 341 355356 110, Fax +49 341 355356 510
>     [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>,
>     http://www.le-tex.de
> 
>     Registergericht / Commercial Register: Amtsgericht Leipzig
>     Registernummer / Registration Number: HRB 24930
> 
>     Geschäftsführer / Managing Directors:
>     Gerrit Imsieke, Svea Jelonek, Thomas Schmidt
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD
> Director, Center for the Digital Text | Associate Professor of English
> University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg | Humanities Division
> 150 Finoli Drive
> Greensburg, PA  15601  USA
> E-mail: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Development site: http://newtfire.org <http://newtfire.org/>

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