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CONLANG  July 2018, Week 4

CONLANG July 2018, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Artlang for exclusive spousal use

From:

Jaymes Lauser <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 24 Jul 2018 02:59:59 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

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text/plain (241 lines)

Hello again!

Wow, I really appreciate all the fantastic responses! Tons of great ideas
and resources here.

And thanks for the welcome, Alex! I subscribed to this list with a
different email months ago but then I got swamped and wasn't keeping up
with it. I recently revamped my email setups and at the same time, I
figured I'd resubscribe. :)

Indeed, the gripping language has an unusual pronoun system.  Namely,
> instead of having first and second person pronouns meaning "I" and "you",
> we have pronouns meaning "the person (A) whose thumb is on top in the
> clasp" and "the person (B) whose thumb is underneath".  We argue that this
> is a simplification: the reference of our pronouns doesn't switch
depending
> on who's uttering them (a phenomenon which has been observed to confuse
> children at a certain stage of language acquisition).  The remaining three
> basic pronouns are "a third person near A, spatially or socially", "a
third
> person near B, ditto", and "a (generic) third person".
>

Yes, this is something along the lines of one of my ideas. I was thinking
of using gender markers as a shortcut of sorts. All masculine-gendered
words would be in reference to me and mine, and all feminine-gendered words
would be in reference to her and hers (I created a precise system for a
variety of nuances of possession that we both like, which sounds like
Logan's a bit, which I want to incorporate in conjunction with this but I'm
not sure yet on how best to do that). All non-gendered words would refer to
"not us" people and objects. We might add a third "gender" for children in
a similar fashion, unsure at this point.

Also, we do want to have a sign language 'dialect' created as an extension
of or in parallel to this spoken/written one, and something like the
gripping language looks like a great source for inspiration along those
lines. :)

If she's not a language nerd but nevertheless into analysing stuff, in
> particular the ideas that the conlang will encode, then it would make
sense
> to involve her in that. (For example, if she's not interested in
taxonomies
> of fine grained distinctions characterizing the speaker's liking for
> classical music, them she's unlikely to be wanting to learn the one you
> propose.)
>

It was always way to easy to just say
> whatever we needed to in English, rather than forcing ourselves to
> commit to practicing the conlang. So I expect my most useful piece of
> advice would just be to make sure that you have some means of
> maintaining your motivation, external to just "wouldn't this be cool?"
> I don't know what that motivation would look like, though. If you
> happen to figure it out, do let me know what worked for you!
>

These two different responses kind of actually answer each other in my
fiancee's and my case. There are a lot of specific features that we really
wish we could use in English (like the 9RP scale) for better communication
between ourselves. Having five separate types of possession, five distinct
imperative/desiderative moods, seven different evidentiality markers, and
five flavors of declarative moods for example. Not to mention the
nomenclature and private connotations of English words we've already
started accumulating which would be so much easier if they all had their
own words for them instead of having to constantly re-clarify what specific
definitions we mean. I've worked closely with her on prioritizing the
above-mentioned features and tailoring them to our relationship, and we
both value their use highly. We're also motivated (her more than me) by the
privacy aspect of having our own private language. These are some of our
motivating factors (aside from the sheer fun of it on my part, haha). I
hope they will be sufficient to make it work!

It has occurred to me innumerably many times over decades of
> unsingleness how useful it would be to have the linguistic means to
> negotiate, through some sort of ulilitarian calculus, what one and one's
> partner will have for dinner, will do tonight, will watch on telly, and so
> forth. If two partners are equally selfish or equally unselfish, that sort
> of impasse can arise that you get when two people are trying to pass each
> other on the street, both dodging left, then both dodging right, and so
> forth, with no protocol to break the deadlock. So I commend your scheme
but
> recommend it be made adaptable to the particular occasion at hand.
>

Yes! This is a good idea. I think some of the shades of meaning enabled
through the palette of moods I mentioned above might be of assistance here,
but any other ideas along these lines would be awesome. I'll bring it up
with her as well to see if she has any ideas. :)

We also included a clusivity distinction in the
> first person plural pronouns (not at all an unusual thing to have
> cross-linguistically) because it seemed like distinguishing between
> "the two of us" and "at least one of us along with some other people"
> was a pretty fundamental thing for a language primarily intended for
> just two people.
>

Aha, yes, a good case for clusivity. I wonder how I could incorporate that
with my idea of the genders? Maybe combining both genders indicates "the
two of us" and some permutation extending that logic could be applied for
other patterns.

Re: richness of vocabulary vs. ease of learning all that vocabulary, I
> recommend a extensive system of productive derivational morphology.
> Never make up a new root word for something if you can find a way to
> derive it from an existing word (unless, of course, it's more fun to
> make up a new root!) That way, if you forget a word that your partner
> used, you'll probably be able to figure out what it means by analyzing
> the parts; and if you forget how to say something, you can probably
> re-invent a fair approximation, if not actually the correct word, on
> the spot.
>
 ...
>
For an example of how the specific nature of our relationship
> influenced the lexical structure of Mev Pailom, note that both my wife
> and I have "physical touch" as a high-priority "love language", and so
> many things end up described in terms of their relationship to or
> usefulness in various physical activities, while many of those
> specific activities have root words even though they might be
> derivable fro each other in theory. "Couch", for example, translates
> as "cuddle-location-thing". If your relationship is less centered
> around non-sexual romantic physical contact, you might not feel the
> need for a distinct root for, e.g., "cuddle" vs. "hug", and you my
> find that a "couch" is better described by some different salient
> characteristics.
>

Ah yes, brilliant, I like this. We're also both high on the Physical Touch
Love Language as well, so we'd probably end up with a lot of similar
constructs. I like the example! One challenge with this, which might be
helped by the book you referenced, is that I am a very abstract and
metaphorical thinker, while she is a very concrete and literal thinker. It
helps when we're being complementary to each other, but it's a pain
sometimes when we're trying to communicate something in each other's terms.
So while "cuddle-location-thing" is the perfect etymology for "couch" for
her, I would likely naturally gravitate towards etymologies like "bee-wolf"
for "bear" and "sky-mountain" for "cloud" and so on. Which would drive her
bonkers. Any ideas on how to have a system that might satisfy or
incorporate both sides? Or is it something we might just have to deal with?

Also, thanks to Aiden and Logan for your pointers on how to help teach it
to her without overburdening her with the minutia of the creation and inner
workings of it. Discussing it in here also helps with that, because I keep
wanting to think out loud and brainstorm ideas about it as part of my
creative process... and I rarely get far before she pauses me and tells me
that I lost her again. She's very sweet about it, but being able to
brainstorm in here with y'all takes some of the pressure off me, so that's
awesome.

Alright, now for some more information on what I have so far.

One thing I want to have is only a single word be required in a sentence,
and have the rest be able to be added in or dropped only as necessary. And
that word would be a single sememe which encodes the mood and evidentiality
of the sentence (with, as always, an optional 9RP affix or helper particle
or something). My thought is also that having a more case-based language
would facilitate simpler sentence construction (and thus ease of use and
learning), but I could be wrong there.

Here is the outline for the moods that I have so far (pardon the
terminology; I probably butchered the proper uses for these terms and made
it more confusing than otherwise).

*Desiderative moods:*

*Subjunctive: suggested about doing (authority is neither assumed nor
denied)*

*Permissive: allowed to do (authority is neither assumed nor denied)*

*Hortative: encouraged to do (jointly without the assertion of authority
"let us go")*

*Jussive: pleaded to do (an indirect command without authority, submitted
to consensually "turn over")*

*Imperative: ordered to do (from a position of authority)*


*Interrogatory moods:*

*Polar: yes/no (can prefix a desiderative prefix to ask for
permission/instructions/authorization)*


*Who*

*What*

*Where*

*Why*

*When*

*How*

*Rhetorical*


*Declarative moods:*

*Basic: simple declarative*

*Dubitative: unlikely or improbable*

*Optative: hoped or desired*

*Potential: probable or likely*

*Admirative: surprising or amazing*


*Conjunctive mood (any of the above + a conjunction stem + case suffix [if
pronomial subordinate clause])*

Also, here is the table of possession types:


*Non-consensual ownership/inherent possession ('my spoon'/'my body')*

*Independent association ('my team/city')*

*Consensual submission ('my master/father')*

*Consensual authority ('my citizen/child')*

*Stewardship possession ('my spouse' in reference to the other's self)*


Hope all that makes a lick of sense. :D It took me forever to realize that
there are other people who had conlanging as a hobby and passion, and so
I've kind of learned in isolation until more recently.


Thanks again for the feedback and ideas!

Jaymes

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March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
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July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
May 2000, Week 4
May 2000, Week 3
May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
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June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
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May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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