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TEI-L  October 2018

TEI-L October 2018

Subject:

Re: Dating, once again

From:

James Cowey <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Wed, 31 Oct 2018 17:01:25 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (121 lines)

Some examples from papyri.info of information concerning the  
observation about "significant body of data"

and 29 February in BCE dates.

Simply meant to illustrate a way that has been found for dealing with  
these problems.

The solutions function. Whether they are beyond blame is another matter

all the best

James

Zitat von "C. M. Sperberg-McQueen" <[log in to unmask]>:

> Pedantry alert:  correcting careless phrasings lest they cause unnecessary
> confusion.  Ignore unless you actually care about the details.
>
>> On Oct 31, 2018, at 8:55 AM, C. M. Sperberg-McQueen   
>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>>> On Oct 31, 2018, at 7:07 AM, Hugh Cayless <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>
>>> I hate to say it, but it depends...on what schema language you?re   
>>> using.  Because of the issues outlined here   
>>> https://github.com/TEIC/TEI/issues/1344, whether your dating   
>>> system has a year zero or not will depend on whether you use Relax  
>>>  NG (no year zero) or XML Schema (has year zero). If there is a   
>>> year zero, (CE) centuries should be X00-X99. It?s my sense that   
>>> most TEI rely on Relax NG.
>>>
>>> And, yes, this is completely bonkers.
>>
>> Neither the proleptic Gregorian calendar nor the Christian version
>> of the Julian calendar has a year zero.   The discrepancies in validator
>> behavior noted in the Github issue referred to relate not to whether
>> there is a year zero, but how to validate years of the form ?0000?,
>> ?-0001?, ?-0002?, etc.,
>
> read:  about how to validate date values whose year takes the lexical
> form ?0000?, ?-0001?, ?-0002?, etc.
>
>> The initial version of XSD, working from an
>> edition of ISO 8601 which does not specifiy an interpretation for
>> year numbers preceded by a minus sign and from the historical fact
>> that in the year numbering of the common era the year 1 of the
>> common era is immediately preceded by the year 1 BCE, assigned
>> the meaning 1 BCE to year -0001, 2 BCE to year -0002, etc.
>
> read:  assigned the meaning 1 BCE to the lexical representation ?-0001?,
> 2 BCE to the lexical representation ?-0002?, etc.
>
>> This
>> proved unfortunate, as astronomers (perhaps the most numerous
>> users of the proleptic Gregorian calendar) have since the Cassinis
>> used the number 0 to represent 1 BCE, -1 to represent 2 BCE, etc.,
>> as this simplifies the calculation of data intervals which cross the
>> epoch.  The later version of ISO 8601 specifies that year 0000
>> denotes 1 BCE, -0001 denotes 2 BCE, etc.,
>
> read: specifies that ?0000? is the string denoting the year 1 BCE,
> ?-0001? is the string denoting 2 BCE, etc.
>
>> and XSD 1.1 changed the
>> definition of the date types accordingly, since as far as we could tell
>> no one at that time had any significant body of data that used the
>> earlier convention.  Validation is affected by this only in the cases
>> of (a) dates in the year 1 BCE

Signifcant body of data.
This is simply a note of data that we have in papyri.info.
If one goes to
http://papyri.info/search
then go to half way down to "Date before" and choose the value "1 CE"
one finds 15443 files which contain documented BCE dates
An example is
https://github.com/papyri/idp.data/blob/master/APIS/berkeley/xml/berkeley.apis.111.xml#L50
<origDate notBefore="-0114" notAfter="-0113">114/113 B.C.?</origDate>
or
https://github.com/papyri/idp.data/blob/master/APIS/berkeley/xml/berkeley.apis.361.xml#L48
<origDate notBefore="-0199" notAfter="-0100">2nd century B.C.</origDate>

This is data used against the tei-epidoc.rng schema
https://github.com/papyri/idp.data/blob/master/APIS/berkeley/xml/berkeley.apis.361.xml#L2

>
> read:  (a) dates whose year is given as ?0000?
>
>> and (b) the date 29 February in
>> the years denoted 0000, -0001, -0004, -0005, etc. (which will be
>> valid if and only if the year number is interpreted as denoting a
>> Gregorian leap year). Inquiries to ancient historians told us they use the
>> dates of the civil calendar, not Gregorian dates (unless for some reason
>> they become interested in when the equinox fell in a given year), so
>> it would surprise me if this affected any real users of XSD or the
>> XSD datatypes.

Live examples for 29 February in BCE dates

https://github.com/papyri/idp.data/blob/master/HGV_meta_EpiDoc/HGV71/70557.xml#L39-L42

and one in CE dates
https://github.com/papyri/idp.data/blob/master/HGV_meta_EpiDoc/HGV25/24637.xml#L35


>>
>> TL;DR:  neither XSD 1.0 nor XSD 1.1 nor Relax NG postulates a
>> year 0; the first century of the common era begins in year 1 CE.
>
> Apologies for the slack phrasing in the original mail; this stuff is hard
> enough to understand without explanations that muff important details.
>
> ********************************************
> C. M. Sperberg-McQueen
> Black Mesa Technologies LLC
> [log in to unmask]
> http://www.blackmesatech.com
> ********************************************
>

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