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CONLANG  December 2018, Week 1

CONLANG December 2018, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Maxwell's phonological demon (was: 2 Lexember 2018)

From:

Daniel Bensen <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 2 Dec 2018 15:18:36 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (97 lines)

Do you have your future australian history written down anywhere? I'd love
to see it!

On Sun, Dec 2, 2018, 2:55 PM Tristan Mc Leay <[log in to unmask] wrote:

> On Sun, Dec 2, 2018, at 9:48 PM, Alex Fink wrote:
> > On Sun, 2 Dec 2018 at 00:31, Tristan Mc Leay <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> > > I know there's many ways to get rid of Cl- clusters, but so far I
> haven't settled on one but I do like changing phonological constraints by
> just not using/discarding words that don't fit the pattern of the language.
> >
> > Weirdo! :-p
> >
> > The idea creeps me out, really.  I first encountered it in a
> > discussion of Russian (wow I'm rubbish at citations), the author
> > positing that words with heavy, counter-sonority clusters like /mgla/
> > 'haze, darkness' had been lost historically at greater than average
> > rates, and I was bothered then too.
> >
> > Let's suppose that in our fieldwork we document two languages X and Y.
> > Language X has a strict CVC structure while language Y allows initial
> > C+/l/ clusters.  We're trying to do historical reconstruction, and we
> > have found a section of the lexicon that seems to be shared between X
> > and Y, but (try as we might with clever correspondences) this set
> > contains no words showing clusters in Y.  Well, one could hypothesise
> > (1) This set of words is a stratum of borrowings from X into Y.
> > That cleanly accounts for the absence of the clusters.  One might also
> posit
> > (2) X and Y are related, and this is the inherited vocabulary;
> > clusters in Y are borrowed from a third source.
> > -- supposing there was a third source with intimate enough contact
> > with Y to enlarge its phonotactics.  But this
> > (3) X and Y are related, and this is a subset of the inherited
> > vocabulary; clusters in Y are also inherited, and X has selectively
> > disappeared all the words in question.
> > I've only seen as a reductio ad absurdum.  Look, your proposal for the
> > language family can't be right, 'cause if it were we'd have to imagine
> > (3)...
>
>
> Something weird happens to your editing in that paragraph and I'm not sure
> I can reliably recover your intention. I can see a possible repair (moving
> the last three lines to the end of (2)), but the result doesn't seem to
> serve your argument.
>
>
> > Or, there is a mechanism whereby words with difficult _inflection_ are
> > selectively lost.  Like how the Romance languages have for 'carry'
> > descendants of the very regular _portō, portāre, portāvī, portātum_,
> > and none of them have gone for odd suppletive _ferō, ferre, tulī,
> > lātum_.  That one makes sense.  For language learners, encountering a
> > word-form reinforces in memory all the forms regularly related to it;
> > so if you have two synonyms, one regular and one irregular, the forms
> > of the regular word will achieve more mutual reinforcement than those
> > of the irregular word, so the regular word will be more cognitively
> > accessible, and over generations that could add up to loss.
> >
> > But how's that supposed to go for phonology of inherited words?
> > Phonology is supposed to be discrete and categorial: if a word is
> > (phonotactically) valid, it's valid, end of!  What's the mechanism
> > that would lead speakers to start replacing?
>
> Supposed by whom? And why am I obliged to agree with them? Almost all
> languages — including English — have some kind of marginal phone, whether
> it's borrowed phonemes, or phones that are *almost* restricted to certain
> phonological or grammatical or lexical contexts, or words that are
> malformed unless there's a morpheme boundary or the word has some specific
> morphological role, or phones that are only found in one or two
> words/stems/morphemes. Some of that implies that it might not even be
> possible to measure if "a word is (phonotactically) valid", and it
> certainly calls into question this notion that phonology is supposed to be
> discrete and categorical.
>
> As to the mechanism that would lead speakers to start replacing, they just
> find the words like that more awkward or unfashionable or weird-sounding.
> If it's the only cluster in the language and the words have good
> alternatives, parents aren't going to be so fussed to teach these words to
> their children — clusters are learnt relatively late. The children will
> grow up with only moderate control. If you're going to embarass yourself
> every time you say a word, why would you say that word often?
>
> It's also important, concerning the more obvious parts of the language at
> least, that the speakers of this language are supposed to be aware of
> what's happening. This isn't just language change happening in isolation.
> It's language change happening in isolation where the isolation is both
> social and geographical, and the community is both forced into it and
> making the most of it. It is socially approved of to diverge the language
> from its origin and from the Americans who have imposed the isolation and
> the northerners who have been occupied by them (at least in the initial
> period). The language change isn't merely the drift of millenia, it's the
> construction of something new on the foundations of something old.
>
> --
> Tristan.
>

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