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CONLANG  January 2019, Week 3

CONLANG January 2019, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Ars Glossopoetica - A Festschrift for Raymond Armar Brown

From:

Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 16 Jan 2019 23:31:27 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (123 lines)

Hallo conlangers!

On 16/01/19 21:00, Raymond Brown wrote:

> On 16/01/2019 15:22, Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
>> Hallo conlangers!
>>
>> On 16/01/19 12:37 Raymond Brown wrote:
> [snip]
>>
>>> Or maybe something else in the Festschrift may set me off on an
>>> entirely different path.  Who knows?
>>
>> Maybe a Paleo-European language, following the leads I have laid out
>> in my own contribution? Such as a language that expands on the little
>> that is known of Eteocretan - a conlang in which the Eteocretan
>> inscriptions make sense?
>
> That's an intriguing suggestion.  However, I've been misrepresented too
> often regarding the Epioi inscription (now proven to be a fake) and the
> Lemnian inscription and other Aegean matters and had false claims made
> about me, that I do not think I shall be doing that.  Sadly, the Aegean
> and the adjoining Balkan area too readily attract cranks making claims
> fuelled by nationalism.  It's a minefield.
>
> I threw away my asbestos suit when I quit Auxlang many years ago and I
> have no wish for more flaming and entering another minefield.

I can understand your disinclination against such a project - *someone*
will probably misunderstand it as a claim that the real Eteocretan
language was that way, and such a claim would of course be objectionable
and wrong. While people are getting used these days to the concept of a
fictional language, thanks to various fantasy and science fiction
blockbusters, and understand what Sindarin or Dothraki are all about,
the notion of a fictional language set *in the real world* is certainly
one that has not yet entered the minds of many people!

Indeed, this worries me with my own lostlang projects. With Albic, it at
least makes things hopefully clear enough that I call its speakers
"Elves" (even if they are just human beings like you and me, and it may
raise misunderstandings of other kinds!), which perhaps sounds unreal
enough, but when it comes to, say, "a linguistic minority in a small
range of forested hills east of Bad Salzuflen" (to take an example from
a side project I am working on currently), people will soon find out
that there really is a city named Bad Salzuflen in Germany, and when
they look it up at Google Maps or OpenStreetMap or whatever map service,
they will find that there actually is a small range of forested hills
east of it! So does this linguistic minority there actually exist, or
not? One really must place a note saying that it is fictional on the top
of a page describing such a language!

> However, I did earlier this evening have a quick squint at "Confessions
> of a Self-Segregationer", since I've mused on and experimented with
> self-segregation on and off for the best part of sixty years.    :)
>
> John refers to my critique of 'Plan B' and my work towards an
> unachievable Dee (Plan D).  Self-segregation was integral to that
> project.  Jeff Prothero had suggested a method; others had also come up
> with ideas.  My own suggestion was OK.  The project failed for other
> reasons which I won't go into here.

I must confess that I haven't yet paid much attention to
self-segregation since I mostly work in naturalistic conlangs where such
things do not matter. But surely, there are many interesting and
ingenious schemes, and Jeff Prothero's scheme struck me as especially
ingenious and attractive (even if the spoken realization of his scheme
he proposed is ugly and kludgy, and the examples he gave don't really
look like a syntactically interesting conlang otherwise).

> BTW when I said I considered such systems to be computer-centric and not
> sufficiently anthropocentric, I meant that language is a *human*
> activity.  It had evolved to express human thoughs and to commicate with
> other humans.  My view is language sould be designed for humans; let
> computer programmers (and I have been such) deal with computers.

Right - optimizing a language meant to be spoken by humans for
computer-parsability is utterly besides the point: computers become more
powerful every year, and natural language processing is a growth
industry where progress is breathtakingly fast, while human beings won't
change much within the next few thousand years. An intermediate language
in machine translation is another thing, though.

> But to return to self-segregation.  Although Dutton did make some effort
> for _spoken_ Speedwords to be self-segregating, he singularly failed to
> provide this in the written language; I felt that that was a great
> weakness.  Therefore, it was always one of the features of the
> long-standing briefscript project in all its incarnations (BrSc, BrScA,
> BrScB, Brx, Bax/Piashi etc).
>
> It was achieved not by any arrangement of binary digits, but through
> phonotactics.  I agree 100% with John that "the pursuit of a
> self-segregating morphology remains worthwhile for those of us who
> profess to be engelangers."   Also, of course, the various schemes I
> adopted during the briefscript project were "not simply theoretical, nor
> focused on parsability by computers, but rather on actual, practical
> parsability by human beings wanting to learn to speak the language" -
> and I should add also "by human beings wanting to read the language."
>
> I shall, therefore, be reading John's essay with great interest.  Who
> knows?  Maybe it will provide a further incentive to return to the
> briefscript project     :)

There is nothing wrong with self-segregation in a language meant for
human beings, after all, it *should* make the structure more visible and
help avoiding garden path sentences and other ambiguities. Of course,
such a self-segregation scheme should be *obvious to humans* and not
consist in something that requires the speech participants to do such
things as looking up binary codes associated with the phonemes and
counting the resulting bits. From that standpoint, Prothero's scheme,
ingenious as it may be, is clearly suboptimal because its logic is not
really apparent to the speaker/listener.

And as I write this, I have to think of arithmographic languages here -
their lexical structure would be completely opaque to the casual user
because the prime factors of a number are not openly apparent (and
actually, finding them is such a hard problem (if the number is big
enough) that most modern cryptography relies on its intractability!).

--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1

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