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CONLANG  January 2019, Week 5

CONLANG January 2019, Week 5

Subject:

Re: When dropping pronouns doesn't make you pro-drop...

From:

Eyal Minsky-Fenick <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 29 Jan 2019 19:50:07 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (198 lines)

*I read quickly the book.
?I read, quickly, the book.
?I read — quickly — the book
I read (quickly) the book.

On Tue, Jan 29, 2019 at 7:38 PM Logan Kearsley <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

> On Tue, 29 Jan 2019 at 17:15, Alfrún Trollsdóttir
> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > Define permit.
>
> Hah! That is kind of the core issue, isn't it... let's go with
> "stylistically" marked. I.e., is something like *"I read quickly the
> book" (which is ungrammatical in English, and at the very least
> stylistically marked in Russian) totally unremarkable in Polish?
>
> > When talking about composing a text in Polish one must know,
> > that in theory Polish word order is not determined, but in real usage
> there
> > are stylistic preferences. So one describes Polish as SVO based on
> > statistics, not grammatical constraints. So if one is determined,
> anything
> > goes, but it can sound more than cumbersome.
> >
> > Let's see with an example:
> > Czyta|ła|m wczoraj książk|ę.
> > read|PAST.FEMININE|1SG yesterday book|ACC.
> > I (a woman) read/was reading a book yesterday.
> >
> > It can be done. If you require more exmples, I can check in a proper
> > grammar, but maybe at more sociable hour.
>
> So it sounds like it is *possible*, but not normal. Darn! If such
> constructions were *not* stylistically marked in Polish, it would help
> back up the abstract-syntax explanation for why pronouns are usually
> not dropped in Russian....
>
> -l.
>
> > BTW, in the example using "ja" (I) would be an error. Unless it was
> > something like "John was reading a book yesterday. - No, _I_ was reading
> a
> > book yesterday" (No short answers in Polish).
> >
> > śr., 30 sty 2019 o 00:57 Logan Kearsley <[log in to unmask]>
> napisał(a):
> >
> > > On Tue, 29 Jan 2019 at 16:42, Alfrún Trollsdóttir
> > > <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Take Polish - it inflects verbs by number, person and gender, and is
> > > > pron-drop. I don't know stats for infinitives with language
> aquisition,
> > > but
> > > > both my younger siblings, and my cousins' children were using
> inflected
> > > > forms when learning. (I am a native speaker).
> > > >
> > > > On the subjct of defining pron-drop language as one that allows to
> drop
> > > > pronouns as subject, Polish demands it. I mean noone uses pronouns
> as a
> > > > subject until it carries additional meaning. Otherise it is a big
> > > stylistic
> > > > error. I mean I still, after learning English for over 20 years,
> have to
> > > > often check whether I skipped pronouns as subject or not. In all
> foreign
> > > > languages I know.
> > > > Phrase "it rains" is not a perfect example, because although in
> normal
> > > > every day Polish it is in fact "pada" - "(it) falls", but that can
> also
> > > > refer to any other type of precipitation, and hearing "pada" you
> > > > automaticly think of rain, because the whole phrase is "Pada deszcz"
> > > (Rain
> > > > falls). Better would be "Grzmi." (It thunders).
> > > >
> > > > It always was strange for me that both Russian and Icelandic have
> good
> > > > conjugation, but still require pronoun subject, and Japanese doesn't.
> > >
> > > Indeed! If the explanation offered in that paper for *why* Russian
> > > requires subject pronouns in most cases is accurate (i.e., that there
> > > is a lack of underlying verb movement to license the use of a null
> > > pronoun, and that subject pronouns themselves are not actually
> > > examples of DPs/NPs but rather a lexicalization of an Agr node), that
> > > would seem to me to be just about the strongest evidence I know of for
> > > the psychological reality of abstract syntax!
> > >
> > > On which note: does Polish permit inserting adverbs between the verb
> > > and object when using SVO word order?
> > >
> > > -l.
> > >
> > > > wt., 29 sty 2019 o 23:26 Logan Kearsley <[log in to unmask]>
> > > napisał(a):
> > > >
> > > > > On Tue, 29 Jan 2019 at 14:44, Aidan Aannestad <
> [log in to unmask]>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Japanese arguably doesn't have an 'infinitive' though, or at
> least
> > > > > > anything analogous to an IE infinitive. Do you mean 'base
> uninflected
> > > > > > form'? That form is 100% valid as the verb of a main clause.
> > > > >
> > > > > That would seem to make doing a comparable test rather
> difficult--but
> > > > > English has similar issues, and while they make it harder to
> collect
> > > > > significant amounts of usable data, it's not impossible. The base
> > > > > uninflected form of English verbs is also a valid finite form, but
> you
> > > > > can still do the test on English L1 learners by identifying places
> > > > > where a different form *should've* been used in adult speech, but
> the
> > > > > child substituted the base form instead.
> > > > >
> > > > > -l.
> > > > >
> > > > > > On 2019/01/29 15:42, Logan Kearsley wrote:
> > > > > > > On Tue, 29 Jan 2019 at 13:28, Aidan Aannestad <
> > > [log in to unmask]>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >> It's a bit surprising to me to hear that about verb
> inflections -
> > > > > > >> Japanese is /very/ pro-drop, and yet has no agreement marking
> on
> > > the
> > > > > > >> verb at all.
> > > > > > > That's a good point. I wonder what the infinitive usage
> statistics
> > > are
> > > > > > > for children acquiring Japanese as their L1....
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -l.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> On 2019/01/28 18:22, Logan Kearsley wrote:
> > > > > > >>> This is a fairly old paper, but I only recently discovered
> it,
> > > and
> > > > > > >>> found it terribly interesting:
> > > > > > >>> http://web.uconn.edu/snyder/papers/EB_WS_FASL.pdf
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> For one thing, it introduced me to an interesting
> developmental
> > > test
> > > > > > >>> for the "pro-drop" classification: If kids use a lot of
> > > infinitive
> > > > > > >>> forms before learning proper finite verb inflections, your
> > > language
> > > > > is
> > > > > > >>> *not* actually pro-drop. No particular reason for why that
> > > should be
> > > > > > >>> is presented, but it kinda makes sense to me: if the adults
> > > around
> > > > > you
> > > > > > >>> don't actually drop subject pronouns very often, then
> > > inflectional
> > > > > > >>> information in the verb is less important; but, if they do,
> > > verbal
> > > > > > >>> inflection becomes much more important for encoding thematic
> > > > > subjects,
> > > > > > >>> so it makes sense that it would be learned faster.
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> Possibly of more direct relevance to conlangers: a
> distinction is
> > > > > made
> > > > > > >>> between dropping expletive subjects vs. thematic subjects
> (where
> > > only
> > > > > > >>> dropping thematic subjects "counts" as pro-dropping). I think
> > > this
> > > > > > >>> intuitively makes sense to a lot of people (i.e., all of the
> > > > > > >>> conlangers who include something in the grammar to the
> effect of
> > > "if
> > > > > > >>> you want to say 'it's raining', my language leaves out the
> 'it',
> > > > > > >>> because it's dumb."), but I haven't before seen it formally
> > > > > > >>> distinguished as a separate syntactic parameter.
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> -l.
> > > > >
> > >
>


-- 
Eyal Joseph Minsky-Fenick
[log in to unmask] (personal)
203-988-2234 (cell)
23 Temple Ct., New Haven, CT 06511-6820

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November 2006, Week 1
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April 2006, Week 5
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April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
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March 2006, Week 3
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March 2006, Week 1
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December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
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October 2005, Week 1
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April 2005, Week 5
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March 2005, Week 5
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December 2004, Week 5
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February 2004, Week 1
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January 2004, Week 1
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December 2003, Week 3
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November 2003, Week 3
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June 2003, Week 5
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June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
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April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
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November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
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June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
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April 2002, Week 5
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April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
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March 2002, Week 1
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February 2002, Week 3
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February 2002, Week 1
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December 2001, Week 5
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December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
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December 2000, Week 5
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December 2000, Week 1
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February 2000, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
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December 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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