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CONLANG  February 2019, Week 2

CONLANG February 2019, Week 2

Subject:

Re: IPA help

From:

Jim Hopkins <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 11 Feb 2019 09:12:41 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (92 lines)

Tony,

I get what your saying about the palatalized “lr”. Similarly, in Itlani I can sense the difference between “sh” and “shy” in “zhirasha” (of help) and “zhirashya” (to help). I have asked myself if I am imagining it but I think it comes out more like “makbáshi-ya”. Of course in rapid or sloppy speech the distinction is lost and context seems to take care of any possible misunderstandings. Ordinary native speakers, I think, would be unconscious of any problem. Sort of like “gotcha” in English.

So maybe “lry” is a similar type of thing.

Just the thoughts of a thoroughly untrained language enthusiast…

Itlani Jim

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Tony Harris
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2019 7:47 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: IPA help

Looking in the dictionary at the words it appears in, most often it 
comes alone at the beginning of a word or between vowels (eg. lrúzhá = 
/ˈʎ̟u.ʒa/, pálrá = /pʰa.ʎ̟a/).  At the beginning of a word it can form a 
consonant clusted with /v/ or /w/ (eg. lrvish = ʎ̟vɪʃ, lrwinâ = 
ʎ̟wɪ.ˈnã).  It does not seem to form a cluster anywhere except the 
beginning of a word, and only with those sounds.

And in a really odd word, it gets palatalized (kálrÿísz = ˈkʰa.ʎ̟ʲis̪), 
and yes, I can hear and feel the difference. No idea whether that's real 
or I'm hallucinating because I expect a difference there, and the word 
is an outlier since there are no other words with the "lrÿ" (/ʎ̟ʲ/) 
combination.

It's a weird sound.  But it fits nicely into the Alurhsa language.

On 19-02-10 19:06, Aidan Aannestad wrote:
> I'd be very curious to hear how it behaves phonologically!
>
> On 2019/02/10 18:05, Tony Harris wrote:
>> Tongue tip is near the *lower* teeth just because that's where it 
>> ends up in order to put the rest of the tongue where it needs to be. 
>> Sound production is done by placing the tongue body against the 
>> post-alveolar area.  I could be persuaded the tongue body is actually 
>> touching the alveolar ridge (although when I compare other known 
>> alveolar sounds I can tell the tongue body isn't touching the same 
>> place), but it's definitely not retroflex *or* dental, unless the 
>> sheer fact of the tongue tip being near any teeth is enough to make 
>> it dental.
>>
>> I guess the lesson for me here is that I'm being way too 
>> perfectionist and looking for the exact, perfect, correct IPA symbol, 
>> when it doesn't really have to be that.
>>
>> It's also actually kind of cool that it seems phoneme I've had in 
>> Alurhsa since its conception doesn't seem to be in use by any 
>> natlang.  Makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside. :)
>>
>>
>>
>> On 19-02-10 18:35, David Peterson wrote:
>>> Wait, hang on. I misread. If the tongue tip is at or near the teeth 
>>> it’s dental. If the tongue body is high, though, can’t you just say 
>>> it’s [-anterior]?
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>> On Feb 10, 2019, at 3:12 PM, Tony Harris <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 19-02-10 17:57, David McCann wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 10 Feb 2019 14:07:50 -0500
>>>>> Tony Harris <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I need some advice from the IPA experts here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> However, studying my way through the latest IPA chart
>>>>>> (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8e/IPA_chart_2018.pdf) 
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am at a loss how to represent a voiced antero-dorsal post-alveolar
>>>>>> lateral approximant.  (And, as I've said before, I am not a trained
>>>>>> linguist, nor do I pretend to be one, so I hope I'm using the terms
>>>>>> in a meaningful way...)
>>>>> In many Australian languages you get a 4-way contrast generated by
>>>>> dental vs post-alveolar and apical vs laminal. For the laminal
>>>>> post-alveolar, Ladefoged used ḻ (underlined l). But don't forget that
>>>>> you can always use the nearest available symbol, so the palatal 
>>>>> lateral
>>>>> ʎ could be used if Alurhsa doesn't have one.
>>>> Doesn't just using the nearest available symbol sort of defeat the 
>>>> purpose of the IPA being a way to accurately represent the sounds? 
>>>> I mean, wouldn't you have to then include a description that 
>>>> essentially says "for this language the symbol /x/ means this, not 
>>>> what the IPA says it means"?
>>>>
>>>> Maybe I'm being to perfectionist. Hmm.

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