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CONLANG  February 2019, Week 3

CONLANG February 2019, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Proper Introduction: Kokòòssràà Grammar

From:

Kevin Walker <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 16 Feb 2019 18:36:58 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (264 lines)

Thanks for the questions Doug, I hope I have answered at least some of them
to your satisfaction - do feel free to press me harder where I haven't, as
there may be some problems I need to keep thinking about.

Also I look forward to hearing about your language next month.

Best,
Kevin

On Fri, Feb 15, 2019, 6:42 PM Doug Barton, <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Thanks for the intro Kevin.  I'm about a week behind here and need to
> read this again to digest, but a couple questions meantime:
>
> DB
>
> On 2/11/2019 1:25 PM, Kevin Walker wrote:
> > Syllable structure is CV(n), with the option of no consonant at the
> > beginning of a word.  Words have a pitch accent on their penult or
> > antepenult which can be high on any vowel or falling on a long vowel.
> *** Either/or right?  Only high on short vowels/only falling on long?
>

An accented short value can only be high, but a long vowel can be high or
falling.  A short vowel is one mora that can be high or low (i.e.
unaccented) and a long vowel is two morae that can be all low, all high, or
a high followed by a low.  In about 30% of words the alternation between
high and falling tones in a long syllable distinguishes the absolute and
dependent states (see below).

> Parts of speech as much as possible I have tried to avoid having any word
> > be restricted to one part of speech - nouns, verbs, adjectives,
> > postpositions, &c all take the same inflections and are often the same
> > word.  I rely in this on the identity of a verb with its implicit object
> -
> > e.g. one sings a song and to be a song is the same as to be sung, so
> “song”
> > is just “be sung” in a different context, likewise “he sings Peggy Sue”
> is
> > just “Peggy Sue, his song” turned into a predicate.  I try to find
> > something for everything, e.g. “to empty something” is the transitivized
> > verb form of “space.”

***  I like flexibility like this, but have a question based on your
> examples.  If a book were titled "The Song", how could the reader
> distinguish that from "The song is sung"?  Can you give examples like
> "sings/be a song/song" and "empty something/space" in Kokòòssràà?


"The song is sung" would literally be

gòòjapèè góójapee
song(def) song(dep)

but gòòjapèè would be a bit redundant, because anything that is a sung is a
song by definition and the dependent state on góójapee would clarify that
we are not speaking to any song, but the song in question.  So actually I
would just say

góójapee
song(dep)
it is sung

If I wanted to distinguish "the book is 'The Song'" from "the book is
sung," I would probably have "is named" the predicate of "is the song."

bòòkàà goojapéétrobbàà kòòssraatrobba
book(def) song(dep)(def)ABS>CON name(dep)ABS>CON
the book is named "The Song"

bòòkàà goojapéétrobbàà
book(def) song(dep)(def)ABS>CON
The book is the song

"sings" would be "song" with possessive inflection, in this case third
person:

goojápeeva
song.MPOSS
he sings; his song

"is sung" and "song" are exactly the same, unless the subject being sung is
definite, in which case it is in the dependent state (see below).

gòòjapee
song
a song, something is sung

góójapee
song(dep)
it is a song, it is sung

So there are some distinctions in meaning based on but state, there is
intentionally more ambiguity here - "is empty" and "space," "a song" and
"is sung" are meant to be the same because they describe the same event.


> >  Also,
> what inflections can postpositions take? ***
>
Postpositions basically are identical in form to transitive verbs, except
that the word in the role of patient, namely that which is on, about, for,
&c., is very clearly more important to the conversation than the word in
the role of agent/experiencer, namely that on, about, for, &c. which it
is.  So a postposition takes transformation agreement with what it is
describing and conjugation agreement with that with relation to which it is
describing it, just as a verb is transformed to agree with its object and
conjugated to agree with its subject and a nominal attribute is transformed
to agree with its head and conjugated to agree with its possessor.

gaanzá tráája dedíínraalreepo
1PL sun(def) PL.under.far(dep).LOC>MASC.CPOSS
We are beneath the sun

Note that words that are postpositions can also function as verbs and
nouns, and the only difference between these functions is the way they are
used in the sentence.

tráája gaanzá dedíínraalreepo
sun(def) 1PL PL.under.far(dep).LOC>MASC.CPOSS
The sun is high above us, shelters us.

tráája dììnraapòò
sun(def) under(def).CPOSS
Somewhere below the sun


> > Definiteness is just marked as a long vowel with falling tone on the
> final
> > syllable.  I know there is more to stipulate about how it is used, but I
> > have no good ideas.  I know pronouns are not marked for definiteness.
> *** Can you give a few examples of +/- definite pairs?**
>
To expand a bit on that explanation, every definite word will end with a
high mora followed by a low mora, and, wherever it does not interfere with
the state-intonation on the word, those two mora will fall on the same
syllable. On any word with 2+ syllables the last syllable never has an
accent on the last syllable anyway, so definite form means lengthening the
final syllable if it is not long already and putting a falling tone on it.:


kòòssraa
name
a name

kòòssràà
name(def)
the name

jágaalre
hidden
something hidden

jágaalrèè
hidden(def)
the hidden thing

On a monosyllable this means making the vowel high and then adding a low
short vowel.

trín
good
(is) a good man

trína
good(def)
(is) the good man

In my head the addition of a short vowel was so that I could preserve the
state-marking intonation on the word stem, but actually it the stem's
intonation it will always be high - maybe I should make this
definiteness-marking vowel long and falling instead, so that the stem
syllable is free to vary in intonation.

> State
> >
> > Words have a different intonation (usually the accent is moved a mora
> > forward or backward, but it varies by word) when they are dependent on a
> > definite word.
> *** What are the states in Kokòòssràà?  Like absolute and construct? ***
>

The states are called absolute and dependent - absolutes are independent words
or modify an indefinite, and dependents modify a definite, whether as a
relative clause, an attributive adjective, or a predicate.  The
dependent-state form of a word is not entirely predictable from its
absolute, so these two make the dictionary form.  Here are some differences
in use between the absolute- and dependent-state forms of jágaalre, jagààlre
- note that in the parsing the absolute state is unmarked.

gásoo jágaalre
crab hidden
a crab hid

jágaalre gásoo
hidden crab
a hidden crab

jagààlre gásòò
hidden(dep) crab(def)
the hidden crab; the crab which is hidden

gásòò jagààlre
crab(def) hidden(dep)
the crab hid

jágaalre
hidden
(there's) something hidden

jagààlre
hidden(dep)
it's hidden

I guess "state" isn't a perfect word for them since none of them correspond
to the Semitic states, but as they do refer to determination, and don't
really correspond to any other category I know of, I've appropriated the
term.

> 2.  Having an agreement system like this expands the lengths of words and
> > sentences quite a bit, because every word stands not only for itself but
> > for up to three other words related to it.  That side-effect does
> irritate
> > me - should I just accept it?
> *** Hmmm.  Judging by your examples (like the one below), it would be a
> concern to me - but then I can't recommend dispensing with all this
> agreement based on your one introduction... I don't feel confident I
> understand it all yet, especially transformation.  So how do you say
> something pretty simple, like "She washed her dog yesterday" ?
>
> tráávolanèè kiitaaniivólanèè dróója
>
> sun(dep)(def).CON>LOC moon(dep)(def).CON>LOC two(def)
>
> “The sun and the moon” ***
>

nettrállriji véésagosra tààddiisragaaji
dog.FPOSS yesterday(dep).LOC>CON>MASC clean(dep).CON>MASC.FPOSS
she cleaned her dog yesterday

> 3.  Does the stuff on definiteness have much value, or should I repurpose
> > it for something else, e.g. obviation, topicalization?  I feel like
> > definiteness is enough the rule in words rather than the exception that
> > having an alternate form specifically for agreement with a definite seems
> > redundant.
> >
> > ***  If it's not overtly marked it can be implied other ways for example
> word order.  Topicalization might be worth exploring but in your system,
> wouldn't that be redundant too? ***
>

Even if it would be redundant, it would be less pervasive and therefore
reinforce meaning more effectively than "agrees with definite,"
particularly since once an indefinite is introduced to the conversation it
is likely to become definite, but there can't be two topics at the same
time.  But it might not be redundant anyway - there are multiple candidates
for topic in a sentence, even if one word is getting the most agreement -
indeed this is the norm for a transitive verb, where the agent tends to be
the subject.  Right now that is indeed being conveyed through word order
though, which is why the default sentence word order is SOV where
everything else corresponds in form with the order OSV.  It could still be
useful for contexts where the topic is not explicitly named, maybe?

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December 2007, Week 5
December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
August 2007, Week 2
August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
July 2000, Week 4
July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
May 2000, Week 4
May 2000, Week 3
May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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