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CONLANG  February 2019, Week 3

CONLANG February 2019, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Proper Introduction: Kokòòssràà Grammar

From:

Doug Barton <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 17 Feb 2019 11:46:22 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

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Parts/Attachments

text/plain (266 lines)

Ok clear enough Kevin.  Thanks for the examples.  And I see you 
explained states in your original message well enough, I just 
misinterpreted.  Re topic, what you say makes me think that may be the 
way to go, seems to be a more elegant use of falling tone too. I don't 
know, something connects the two in my head.

On 2/16/2019 5:36 PM, Kevin Walker wrote:
> Thanks for the questions Doug, I hope I have answered at least some of them
> to your satisfaction - do feel free to press me harder where I haven't, as
> there may be some problems I need to keep thinking about.
>
> Also I look forward to hearing about your language next month.
>
> Best,
> Kevin
>
> On Fri, Feb 15, 2019, 6:42 PM Doug Barton, <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the intro Kevin.  I'm about a week behind here and need to
>> read this again to digest, but a couple questions meantime:
>>
>> DB
>>
>> On 2/11/2019 1:25 PM, Kevin Walker wrote:
>>> Syllable structure is CV(n), with the option of no consonant at the
>>> beginning of a word.  Words have a pitch accent on their penult or
>>> antepenult which can be high on any vowel or falling on a long vowel.
>> *** Either/or right?  Only high on short vowels/only falling on long?
>>
> An accented short value can only be high, but a long vowel can be high or
> falling.  A short vowel is one mora that can be high or low (i.e.
> unaccented) and a long vowel is two morae that can be all low, all high, or
> a high followed by a low.  In about 30% of words the alternation between
> high and falling tones in a long syllable distinguishes the absolute and
> dependent states (see below).
>
>> Parts of speech as much as possible I have tried to avoid having any word
>>> be restricted to one part of speech - nouns, verbs, adjectives,
>>> postpositions, &c all take the same inflections and are often the same
>>> word.  I rely in this on the identity of a verb with its implicit object
>> -
>>> e.g. one sings a song and to be a song is the same as to be sung, so
>> “song”
>>> is just “be sung” in a different context, likewise “he sings Peggy Sue”
>> is
>>> just “Peggy Sue, his song” turned into a predicate.  I try to find
>>> something for everything, e.g. “to empty something” is the transitivized
>>> verb form of “space.”
> ***  I like flexibility like this, but have a question based on your
>> examples.  If a book were titled "The Song", how could the reader
>> distinguish that from "The song is sung"?  Can you give examples like
>> "sings/be a song/song" and "empty something/space" in Kokòòssràà?
>
> "The song is sung" would literally be
>
> gòòjapèè góójapee
> song(def) song(dep)
>
> but gòòjapèè would be a bit redundant, because anything that is a sung is a
> song by definition and the dependent state on góójapee would clarify that
> we are not speaking to any song, but the song in question.  So actually I
> would just say
>
> góójapee
> song(dep)
> it is sung
>
> If I wanted to distinguish "the book is 'The Song'" from "the book is
> sung," I would probably have "is named" the predicate of "is the song."
>
> bòòkàà goojapéétrobbàà kòòssraatrobba
> book(def) song(dep)(def)ABS>CON name(dep)ABS>CON
> the book is named "The Song"
>
> bòòkàà goojapéétrobbàà
> book(def) song(dep)(def)ABS>CON
> The book is the song
>
> "sings" would be "song" with possessive inflection, in this case third
> person:
>
> goojápeeva
> song.MPOSS
> he sings; his song
>
> "is sung" and "song" are exactly the same, unless the subject being sung is
> definite, in which case it is in the dependent state (see below).
>
> gòòjapee
> song
> a song, something is sung
>
> góójapee
> song(dep)
> it is a song, it is sung
>
> So there are some distinctions in meaning based on but state, there is
> intentionally more ambiguity here - "is empty" and "space," "a song" and
> "is sung" are meant to be the same because they describe the same event.
>
>
>>>   Also,
>> what inflections can postpositions take? ***
>>
> Postpositions basically are identical in form to transitive verbs, except
> that the word in the role of patient, namely that which is on, about, for,
> &c., is very clearly more important to the conversation than the word in
> the role of agent/experiencer, namely that on, about, for, &c. which it
> is.  So a postposition takes transformation agreement with what it is
> describing and conjugation agreement with that with relation to which it is
> describing it, just as a verb is transformed to agree with its object and
> conjugated to agree with its subject and a nominal attribute is transformed
> to agree with its head and conjugated to agree with its possessor.
>
> gaanzá tráája dedíínraalreepo
> 1PL sun(def) PL.under.far(dep).LOC>MASC.CPOSS
> We are beneath the sun
>
> Note that words that are postpositions can also function as verbs and
> nouns, and the only difference between these functions is the way they are
> used in the sentence.
>
> tráája gaanzá dedíínraalreepo
> sun(def) 1PL PL.under.far(dep).LOC>MASC.CPOSS
> The sun is high above us, shelters us.
>
> tráája dììnraapòò
> sun(def) under(def).CPOSS
> Somewhere below the sun
>
>
>>> Definiteness is just marked as a long vowel with falling tone on the
>> final
>>> syllable.  I know there is more to stipulate about how it is used, but I
>>> have no good ideas.  I know pronouns are not marked for definiteness.
>> *** Can you give a few examples of +/- definite pairs?**
>>
> To expand a bit on that explanation, every definite word will end with a
> high mora followed by a low mora, and, wherever it does not interfere with
> the state-intonation on the word, those two mora will fall on the same
> syllable. On any word with 2+ syllables the last syllable never has an
> accent on the last syllable anyway, so definite form means lengthening the
> final syllable if it is not long already and putting a falling tone on it.:
>
>
> kòòssraa
> name
> a name
>
> kòòssràà
> name(def)
> the name
>
> jágaalre
> hidden
> something hidden
>
> jágaalrèè
> hidden(def)
> the hidden thing
>
> On a monosyllable this means making the vowel high and then adding a low
> short vowel.
>
> trín
> good
> (is) a good man
>
> trína
> good(def)
> (is) the good man
>
> In my head the addition of a short vowel was so that I could preserve the
> state-marking intonation on the word stem, but actually it the stem's
> intonation it will always be high - maybe I should make this
> definiteness-marking vowel long and falling instead, so that the stem
> syllable is free to vary in intonation.
>
>> State
>>> Words have a different intonation (usually the accent is moved a mora
>>> forward or backward, but it varies by word) when they are dependent on a
>>> definite word.
>> *** What are the states in Kokòòssràà?  Like absolute and construct? ***
>>
> The states are called absolute and dependent - absolutes are independent words
> or modify an indefinite, and dependents modify a definite, whether as a
> relative clause, an attributive adjective, or a predicate.  The
> dependent-state form of a word is not entirely predictable from its
> absolute, so these two make the dictionary form.  Here are some differences
> in use between the absolute- and dependent-state forms of jágaalre, jagààlre
> - note that in the parsing the absolute state is unmarked.
>
> gásoo jágaalre
> crab hidden
> a crab hid
>
> jágaalre gásoo
> hidden crab
> a hidden crab
>
> jagààlre gásòò
> hidden(dep) crab(def)
> the hidden crab; the crab which is hidden
>
> gásòò jagààlre
> crab(def) hidden(dep)
> the crab hid
>
> jágaalre
> hidden
> (there's) something hidden
>
> jagààlre
> hidden(dep)
> it's hidden
>
> I guess "state" isn't a perfect word for them since none of them correspond
> to the Semitic states, but as they do refer to determination, and don't
> really correspond to any other category I know of, I've appropriated the
> term.
>
>> 2.  Having an agreement system like this expands the lengths of words and
>>> sentences quite a bit, because every word stands not only for itself but
>>> for up to three other words related to it.  That side-effect does
>> irritate
>>> me - should I just accept it?
>> *** Hmmm.  Judging by your examples (like the one below), it would be a
>> concern to me - but then I can't recommend dispensing with all this
>> agreement based on your one introduction... I don't feel confident I
>> understand it all yet, especially transformation.  So how do you say
>> something pretty simple, like "She washed her dog yesterday" ?
>>
>> tráávolanèè kiitaaniivólanèè dróója
>>
>> sun(dep)(def).CON>LOC moon(dep)(def).CON>LOC two(def)
>>
>> “The sun and the moon” ***
>>
> nettrállriji véésagosra tààddiisragaaji
> dog.FPOSS yesterday(dep).LOC>CON>MASC clean(dep).CON>MASC.FPOSS
> she cleaned her dog yesterday
>
>> 3.  Does the stuff on definiteness have much value, or should I repurpose
>>> it for something else, e.g. obviation, topicalization?  I feel like
>>> definiteness is enough the rule in words rather than the exception that
>>> having an alternate form specifically for agreement with a definite seems
>>> redundant.
>>>
>>> ***  If it's not overtly marked it can be implied other ways for example
>> word order.  Topicalization might be worth exploring but in your system,
>> wouldn't that be redundant too? ***
>>
> Even if it would be redundant, it would be less pervasive and therefore
> reinforce meaning more effectively than "agrees with definite,"
> particularly since once an indefinite is introduced to the conversation it
> is likely to become definite, but there can't be two topics at the same
> time.  But it might not be redundant anyway - there are multiple candidates
> for topic in a sentence, even if one word is getting the most agreement -
> indeed this is the norm for a transitive verb, where the agent tends to be
> the subject.  Right now that is indeed being conveyed through word order
> though, which is why the default sentence word order is SOV where
> everything else corresponds in form with the order OSV.  It could still be
> useful for contexts where the topic is not explicitly named, maybe?
>
>

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October 2008, Week 3
October 2008, Week 2
October 2008, Week 1
September 2008, Week 5
September 2008, Week 4
September 2008, Week 3
September 2008, Week 2
September 2008, Week 1
August 2008, Week 5
August 2008, Week 4
August 2008, Week 3
August 2008, Week 2
August 2008, Week 1
July 2008, Week 5
July 2008, Week 4
July 2008, Week 3
July 2008, Week 2
July 2008, Week 1
June 2008, Week 5
June 2008, Week 4
June 2008, Week 3
June 2008, Week 2
June 2008, Week 1
May 2008, Week 5
May 2008, Week 4
May 2008, Week 3
May 2008, Week 2
May 2008, Week 1
April 2008, Week 5
April 2008, Week 4
April 2008, Week 3
April 2008, Week 2
April 2008, Week 1
March 2008, Week 5
March 2008, Week 4
March 2008, Week 3
March 2008, Week 2
March 2008, Week 1
February 2008, Week 5
February 2008, Week 4
February 2008, Week 3
February 2008, Week 2
February 2008, Week 1
January 2008, Week 5
January 2008, Week 4
January 2008, Week 3
January 2008, Week 2
January 2008, Week 1
December 2007, Week 5
December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
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August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
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September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
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August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
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July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
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May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
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September 2000, Week 1
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June 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
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September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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