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CONLANG  April 2019, Week 3

CONLANG April 2019, Week 3

Subject:

Re: As simple as possible, but not too simple.

From:

"Paul Schleitwiler, FCM" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 20 Apr 2019 22:11:22 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (103 lines)

The point of translation is to give the sense of what was said, not a
transliteration. So " there are times when I back away from “translating”
it at all and take refuge in trying to think about how a native Itlani
might originally think about, frame and form a vocal expression to get the
same thought across." is not backing away from translation , but is truly
translating.

On Sat, Apr 20, 2019 at 2:10 PM Jim Hopkins <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> In Itlani it is often impossible or at least inelegant to translate
> English sentences just as they are, especially if they contain a lot of
> embedded clauses. Some non-colloquial English sentences can go on for quite
> a while and even for native speakers it can be a challenge not to get lost
> in exactly what the writer/speaker is aiming at. When I am attempting to
> translate a sentence like this, I sometimes have to split the English
> sentence into two or even three separate sentences.
>
> If it is a particularly thorny sentence, there are times when I back away
> from “translating” it at all and take refuge in trying to think about how a
> native Itlani might originally think about, frame and form a vocal
> expression to get the same thought across. Interestingly, the same works in
> reverse. Tony Harris (a fluent Itlani speaker) has often pointed out to me
> that when I speak in Itlani and give my own translations the two versions
> are not always exact. I have found that my English translations, if based
> too closely on the Itlani original do not make good English at all.
>
> Simple and clear is always a good choice.
>
> Itlani Jim
>
> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>
> From: Mark J. Reed
> Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2019 1:47 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: As simple as possible, but not too simple.
>
> Sure. You can render pretty much any idea in any sufficiently complete
> language, at worst losing some nuance. As an example, Klingon has very
> limited support for complex sentences; if you look at, say, Hamlet, you
> find single Shakespearean sentences becoming two or three or more short
> sentences in the Klingon rendition. But the meaning still carries through.
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 20, 2019 at 13:07 Gary Shannon <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> > The idea of having very simple rules for the construction of sentences
> has
> > always had a certain appeal to me. But I always end up devising formal
> > grammars that work well for the most basic of sentences, but fail utterly
> > when encountering real-world sentences. But what if a language was built
> in
> > such a way that complex sentence were not even possible. Would it still
> be
> > possible to translate complex sentences from other languages into this
> > conlang? I'm thinking rather than Toki Pona simple, something more like
> > Turing machine simple. Simple, yes, but still capable of expressing
> > anything that can be expressed in any other language. I recall having
> > posted a similar idea a long time ago. (see link at the bottom)
> >
> > So since I'm trying to translate Alice in Wonderland, why not start with
> > the very first sentence, which puts the whole idea to the test.
> >
> > Alice was beginning to get very tired of sitting by her sister on the
> bank,
> > and of having nothing to do.
> >
> > A very complex sentence, but containing three very simple ideas:
> >
> > Alice was sitting on the bank by her sister.
> > She had nothing to do.
> > She was beginning to become very tired of that.
> >
> > And there we have the same idea expressed with three simple sentences.
> Now
> > each of those sentences could be translated into the conlang using some
> > simple set of formal grammar rules.
> >
> > [noun phrase] [conjugated verb] [prepositional phrase] [prepositional
> > phrase].
> > [noun phrase] [negation] [conjugated verb] [noun phrase].
> > [noun phrase] [conjugated copular verb] [adj phrase].
> >
> > The last [adj phrase] might also contain a prepositional phrase as an
> > object of the adjective, i.e. [tired [of that]].
> >
> > At any rate, it seems like the formal grammar rules could be very simple
> > indeed and still allow for capturing the complex ideas expressed in other
> > languages.
> >
> > FWIW: I found my original post from 2012: Ignore what I said about word
> > derivations. That was a dumb idea! :)
> >
> >
> >
> https://listserv.brown.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1206C&L=CONLANG&P=R7355&X=O1C19D9D36F29167D33
> >
> > --gary
> >
> --
> Mark J. Reed <[log in to unmask]>
>

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