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CONLANG  April 2019, Week 3

CONLANG April 2019, Week 3

Subject:

Re: As simple as possible, but not too simple.

From:

Seth KAZAN <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 21 Apr 2019 20:46:46 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (220 lines)

the real problem for conlang translation is, for the most part, the absence
of real corpora of texts, and readers, to ensure choices ...

translation often serves as a production of texts in conlang, with the risk
of direct importation of "the habits and customs" of the source language ...

the use of very simple and especially very restrictive rules,  in conlang,
forces to perform a shake-up of the form to try to approach anything bit of
the content... and this is a good way to avoid the risk above...

have a pic for the day... <https://odd-language.tumblr.com/>


Le dim. 21 avr. 2019 à 18:00, BPJ <[log in to unmask]> a écrit :

> I have worked quite a lot as a translator — "real", paid work — and
> rephrasing clauses, sentences or even whole paragraphs is common. Even
> languages as close as Swedish and English, and even Swedish and Danish
> sometimes organize the flow of information differently. Unless you are
> producing what students of ancient literature call a crib the most literal
> translation is seldom the best translation. A good translation is one which
> gets the message across using a vocabulary and grammar which is as natural
> for the target language as possible. In fact bad translations are often
> characterized by sticking too close to the original so that the original
> shines through, sometimes even making it necessary to know the original
> language to make sense of the "translation", which thus is a gloss rather
> than a translation. L2 speakers/writers whose L1 differs a lot from the L2
> also often have this problem.
> Beside grammar and vocabulary style also is important. What is good style
> in the source language may be bad style in the target language, or a
> particular mode of expression may carry different associations in the
> source and target language. A good translator should use a style which
> evokes the same mental responses in target language readers as the original
> style does in source language readers. (Not that that matters a lot in the
> kind of non-fiction translation work I do!) For example Icelandic,
> especially Old Icelandic, often uses a terse and elliptic style which look
> very "cool" if translated literally into Swedish or English, but doing so
> is often a mistake, since in the original this is just the normal mode of
> expression, without carrying any special message. I have taken that to an
> extreme in my conlang Sohlob. Something which might be translated very
> literally into English as "A man walked on a road, saw his enemy, sneaked
> up, beat, spat, went home" is the normal mode of expression in Sohlob. To
> get the actual sense across in English you would need several sentences or
> at least subordinate clauses: "A man was walking along a road. Suddenly he
> saw an enemy of his further down the road. The man hid himself and sneaked
> up on his enemy. Then he gave his enemy a beating and returned home." In
> Sohlob all the clauses except the first are complete subordinate clauses,
> expressed through an infinite verb form each. Moreover since Sohlob has
> simple pronouns which may be translated as 'the first person, the other
> person, yet another person' (although 'this, that, another' may be more
> appropriate in other contexts) and since Sohlob would distinguish agent and
> patient roles through affixes on NPs which actually are overtly expressed,
> an even more literal gloss would be "Man-one.AGT walked road-along. seeing
> enemy-PAT, sneaked, beat, went-again home-to", while the same with a
> partial role reversal might be expressed by what would be glossed as
> "Man-one.AGT walked road-along, seeing enemy.AGT, sneaked the.first-upon,
> beat, went home.to". Translating that into idiomatic English I will leave
> as an exercise. Unlike English Sohlob would use different verb forms for
> instantaneous action, but the same forms for progressive and habitual
> action — technically there are habitual-progressive, punctual and perfect
> aspects but no tense in Sohlob — something I left out in the glosses above.
> Note also the difference that the sneaking-and-beating behavior, although
> not legal or moral, would perhaps be less remarkable in Sohlshan society,
> if only because there wouldn't be as effective police investigation
> practices (nor would the police be distinct from the military) so it would
> be easier to get away with. In a longer narrative a good translation should
> try to convey this even if it is not mentioned explicitly in the original.
>
> Den sön 21 apr. 2019 10:17Jim Hopkins <[log in to unmask]> skrev:
>
> > Paul, understood. What I was thinking, and did not make clear (my bad)
> was
> > a distinction between more closely following the original, as in “word
> for
> > word” translation in contrast to a “sense for sense” translation, which
> may
> > take more liberty with the actual structure (but not meaning) of the
> > original. As you say, both are indeed translating.
> >
> > Jim
> >
> > Sent from Mail for Windows 10
> >
> > From: Paul Schleitwiler, FCM
> > Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2019 11:11 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: As simple as possible, but not too simple.
> >
> > The point of translation is to give the sense of what was said, not a
> > transliteration. So " there are times when I back away from “translating”
> > it at all and take refuge in trying to think about how a native Itlani
> > might originally think about, frame and form a vocal expression to get
> the
> > same thought across." is not backing away from translation , but is truly
> > translating.
> >
> > On Sat, Apr 20, 2019 at 2:10 PM Jim Hopkins <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > > In Itlani it is often impossible or at least inelegant to translate
> > > English sentences just as they are, especially if they contain a lot of
> > > embedded clauses. Some non-colloquial English sentences can go on for
> > quite
> > > a while and even for native speakers it can be a challenge not to get
> > lost
> > > in exactly what the writer/speaker is aiming at. When I am attempting
> to
> > > translate a sentence like this, I sometimes have to split the English
> > > sentence into two or even three separate sentences.
> > >
> > > If it is a particularly thorny sentence, there are times when I back
> away
> > > from “translating” it at all and take refuge in trying to think about
> > how a
> > > native Itlani might originally think about, frame and form a vocal
> > > expression to get the same thought across. Interestingly, the same
> works
> > in
> > > reverse. Tony Harris (a fluent Itlani speaker) has often pointed out to
> > me
> > > that when I speak in Itlani and give my own translations the two
> versions
> > > are not always exact. I have found that my English translations, if
> based
> > > too closely on the Itlani original do not make good English at all.
> > >
> > > Simple and clear is always a good choice.
> > >
> > > Itlani Jim
> > >
> > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10
> > >
> > > From: Mark J. Reed
> > > Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2019 1:47 PM
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Subject: Re: As simple as possible, but not too simple.
> > >
> > > Sure. You can render pretty much any idea in any sufficiently complete
> > > language, at worst losing some nuance. As an example, Klingon has very
> > > limited support for complex sentences; if you look at, say, Hamlet, you
> > > find single Shakespearean sentences becoming two or three or more short
> > > sentences in the Klingon rendition. But the meaning still carries
> > through.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Apr 20, 2019 at 13:07 Gary Shannon <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > The idea of having very simple rules for the construction of
> sentences
> > > has
> > > > always had a certain appeal to me. But I always end up devising
> formal
> > > > grammars that work well for the most basic of sentences, but fail
> > utterly
> > > > when encountering real-world sentences. But what if a language was
> > built
> > > in
> > > > such a way that complex sentence were not even possible. Would it
> still
> > > be
> > > > possible to translate complex sentences from other languages into
> this
> > > > conlang? I'm thinking rather than Toki Pona simple, something more
> like
> > > > Turing machine simple. Simple, yes, but still capable of expressing
> > > > anything that can be expressed in any other language. I recall having
> > > > posted a similar idea a long time ago. (see link at the bottom)
> > > >
> > > > So since I'm trying to translate Alice in Wonderland, why not start
> > with
> > > > the very first sentence, which puts the whole idea to the test.
> > > >
> > > > Alice was beginning to get very tired of sitting by her sister on the
> > > bank,
> > > > and of having nothing to do.
> > > >
> > > > A very complex sentence, but containing three very simple ideas:
> > > >
> > > > Alice was sitting on the bank by her sister.
> > > > She had nothing to do.
> > > > She was beginning to become very tired of that.
> > > >
> > > > And there we have the same idea expressed with three simple
> sentences.
> > > Now
> > > > each of those sentences could be translated into the conlang using
> some
> > > > simple set of formal grammar rules.
> > > >
> > > > [noun phrase] [conjugated verb] [prepositional phrase] [prepositional
> > > > phrase].
> > > > [noun phrase] [negation] [conjugated verb] [noun phrase].
> > > > [noun phrase] [conjugated copular verb] [adj phrase].
> > > >
> > > > The last [adj phrase] might also contain a prepositional phrase as an
> > > > object of the adjective, i.e. [tired [of that]].
> > > >
> > > > At any rate, it seems like the formal grammar rules could be very
> > simple
> > > > indeed and still allow for capturing the complex ideas expressed in
> > other
> > > > languages.
> > > >
> > > > FWIW: I found my original post from 2012: Ignore what I said about
> word
> > > > derivations. That was a dumb idea! :)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://listserv.brown.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1206C&L=CONLANG&P=R7355&X=O1C19D9D36F29167D33
> > > >
> > > > --gary
> > > >
> > > --
> > > Mark J. Reed <[log in to unmask]>
> > >
> >
>

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June 2008, Week 4
June 2008, Week 3
June 2008, Week 2
June 2008, Week 1
May 2008, Week 5
May 2008, Week 4
May 2008, Week 3
May 2008, Week 2
May 2008, Week 1
April 2008, Week 5
April 2008, Week 4
April 2008, Week 3
April 2008, Week 2
April 2008, Week 1
March 2008, Week 5
March 2008, Week 4
March 2008, Week 3
March 2008, Week 2
March 2008, Week 1
February 2008, Week 5
February 2008, Week 4
February 2008, Week 3
February 2008, Week 2
February 2008, Week 1
January 2008, Week 5
January 2008, Week 4
January 2008, Week 3
January 2008, Week 2
January 2008, Week 1
December 2007, Week 5
December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
August 2007, Week 2
August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
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August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
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July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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