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CONLANG  April 2019, Week 5

CONLANG April 2019, Week 5

Subject:

Romanization of conlangs (was: Not using IPA for reconstructed languages (was: Proto-Sohlob-Isturjieb coming))

From:

BPJ <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 29 Apr 2019 18:41:27 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (138 lines)

The snag is of course that as conlangers we usually know what those
romanizations are supposed to stand for, so maybe our non-use of IPA is
rather part of the fictional setting where we pretend to be historical
linguists who are describing real-world (pre)-historical languages, or at
least languages which are real in the worlds where those languages are
real, perhaps leaning on a scholarly tradition which is also real in those
worlds. There may of course be different opinions on how legitimate that
behavior is.

A more unquestionably legitimate concern is ease of typing, and perhaps
ease of doing grammar rather than phone*ics. As Logan Kearsley wrote in
another thread recently:

LK >And I know that this is not true for some other people, but one thing
LK >that is fairly consistent about my process (and has actually stalled
LK >progress on many projects I would like to finish at some point) is
LK >that I cannot make very much progress without a good romanization
LK >system. If I cannot fluently type an unambiguous representation of the
LK >language, then I cannot work on it, because the details of
LK >transcribing it will get in the way of thinking about how it actually
LK >works. Usually that means that most of the phonetics / phonology do
LK >indeed have to be figured out fairly early on, to make it possible to
LK >devise a reasonable romanization system, but it's not necessarily the
LK >*first* thing.

(It feels good to know that I'm not the only one! :-)

It certainly is a factor that I have a key for ‹ä› and dead keys for some
of the most usual Latin alphabet diacritics readily available on my Swedish
Linux keyboard, so that I can readily type the "standard" Sohlob
romanization in any application, while I only would type IPA in Vim using
my own CXS-to-IPA keymap.
On my handheld devices where I use Multiling O Keyboard[^1] switching
to/from the IPA mode takes only one touch more than typing a letter with
diacritic, so that's hardly it.

Some of us wouldn't want a romanization using any diacritical marks, or
rather not any requiring any special devices, and for some of them the main
problem with IPA may well be that it requires special devices, sensu lato.
In fact I can very much sympathize with that. After I decided that I wanted
to replace my old Latin-1 based romanization of Sohlob with something less
weird I literally hesitated for years about how to write the non-Latin
consonants. Not only was/am I not a big fan of tacking on a ‹+h› to any
consonant to indicate any of a number of modifications, but I already had a
number of ‹h› + resonant digraphs for voiceless resonants/voiceless lateral
fricative which I didn't want to give up. But how then distinguish between
e.g. [xl] and [kɬ]? I indeed considered using ‹hk hg hc hs› etc. but felt
that (1) Teonaht has prior art and (2) it would hardly be helpful. I ended
up with a "multigraded" romanization — or rather four different
romanizations for different purposes.[^2] The "narrow" version using tons
of diacritical marks is really mostly indulgence of the "imaginary
historical linguist" variety. The "broad" version is what I mostly use for
language description, except that I usually use ‹hl› etc. for the voiceless
resonants. This means that all the letters really needed to romanize Sohlob
languages
 can be typed on my Swedish Linux keyboard using only precomposed
characters. Incidentally the extra consonant letters needed to type
Classical Sohlob and Chidilib are the same as Lakhota uses, which is a Good
Thing because it means there are many fonts which support the set. Now I'm
even happy to use ‹ȟ› rather than ‹ǩ› for /x/ since I regard [h] as a
better potential mispronunciation than [k] or (horror!) [ks].

The original reason to exist for the "simplified" version was that I
thought that that was what I was going to use for language names and proper
names in English (and Swedish) text and in narrative fiction, should I
write any again. In fact I'm using the "ASCII" version (potentially plus
the middle dot) for names in English text, even though _Hïlïb_ probably
would stand a better chance than _Hielieb_ of being pronounced close to
[hɨlɨb̥].  Such is the power of the notion that English doesn't use
diacritical marks — which actually isn't quite true anyway!

My opinion on digraphs has actually loosened up considerably over the last
your or two, especially since I realized that if used in a consistent and
principled way letters and punctuation characters can in fact be
diacritics. I came to that realization when it hit me that that caron ~ ‹h›
and umlaut ~ ‹e› are actually freely interchangeable in the current
romanization of Sohlob, except that ‹ȟ› is preferred to ‹ǩ› and ‹h› is
omitted after ‹j› to the extent that I use ‹ǰ› at all.
As you can see my "ASCII" version even uses ‹r› as a diacritic for
"retracted", and I've even used ‹td› for dental _t_ in a file name! In fact
I'm currently mulling on what other letters than ‹+h +y/+j +e +r/r+ h+› may
have an "obvious" diacritic use. Doubling may also be regarded as a
diacritic when used in a principled way.


[^1]: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=kl.ime.oh

[^2]: http://melroch.se/sohlob/sohlob-romanization.pdf

Den sön 28 apr. 2019 21:50Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]> skrev:

> Hallo conlangers!
>
> On 22/04/19 18:28, BPJ made the following digression in a longer post:
>
> > {begin digression}
> > Indeed one of my reasons for not using IPA is that I feel that using it,
> > especially between slashes or brackets is or may look like a stronger
> > commitment to phonemehood or a particular phonetic value than I want to
> > make at least at this point. E.g. using _ȟ_ skirts the question of which
> > Sohlob varieties, communities etc. have [x] or [χ] at any point in time,
> > space or the speech stream. (Also I happen to think that e.g. [pahad] is
> a
> > better mispronunciation of [paxad] than [paksad] or [pakad], not least
> > because that is how an articulatorically unskilled Chidilib or Linjieb
> > speaker would render it!)
> > {end digression}
>
> Right! IPA is a *phonetic alphabet*, it is made for discussing phonetic
> values. Reconstructed languages at most have *phonemes*. Using IPA
> creates the impression that one can nail down the sounds written that
> way to some more or less exact phonetic value, which usually is unknown
> and often unknowable in a reconstructed language. Also, IPA is a *big*
> chest of letters, and with most languages, you won't need more than a
> few of them, and it is often more convenient to use some other alphabet
> which does not have so many superfluous letters.
>
> This is, for instance, part of the reason why Indo-Europeanists don't
> transcribe PIE in IPA. (The bigger reason of course is that there is a
> long-standing tradition of transcribing the PIE phonemes as they are
> done, and nobody feels like changing it more than necessary to
> accommodate newer insights.) Consider the "laryngeals". Just what are
> they? If you transcribe them as, say, *h, *χ, *χʷ, you have cast a vote
> in the endless debate about their phonetic values even if that wasn't
> your intention, and people who maintain a different position will attack
> you. So everybody just uses *h1, *h2, *h3, which says just what is known
> about them, namely "three vaguely h-like sounds which differ from each
> other in some unknown way". The same thing holds, of course, for other
> language families such as Uralic, Semitic, Sino-Tibetan or Austronesian.
>
> In a similar way, ancient written languages are not transcribed in IPA,
> either; rather, linguists render the *graphemes* of the language - which
> is the *only* thing we know for sure about them! - in a convenient
> alphabet, and IPA usually is a bad choice. That's, for example, why you
> don't see vowel letters in transcriptions of languages like Egyptian or
> Phoenician - the ancient Egyptians and Phoenicians did not write the
> vowels, either, so we can't be sure about them.

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June 2006, Week 5
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April 2006, Week 5
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April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
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December 2005, Week 5
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December 2005, Week 3
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December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
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November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
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October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
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September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
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July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
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April 2005, Week 5
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April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
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January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
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December 2004, Week 3
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November 2004, Week 3
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August 2004, Week 5
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August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
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June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
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May 2004, Week 3
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April 2004, Week 5
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April 2004, Week 3
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February 2004, Week 1
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January 2004, Week 1
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December 2003, Week 3
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November 2003, Week 3
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October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
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September 2003, Week 5
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September 2003, Week 1
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August 2003, Week 1
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June 2003, Week 5
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June 2003, Week 3
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June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
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April 2003, Week 5
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April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
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November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
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June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
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April 2002, Week 5
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April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
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March 2002, Week 3
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March 2002, Week 1
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February 2002, Week 3
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February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
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December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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November 2001, Week 1
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October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
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June 2001, Week 5
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May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
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April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
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December 2000, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
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December 1999, Week 5
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November 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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