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CONLANG  April 2019, Week 5

CONLANG April 2019, Week 5

Subject:

Re: Romanization of conlangs

From:

Aidan Aannestad <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 30 Apr 2019 09:12:54 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (109 lines)

The chapter I mentioned having read was also by Keith Snider - I just 
finished his book /Tone Analysis for Field Linguists/, and he talks 
about his Lexical Orthography Hypothesis in the context of tone orthography.

Of course, like I said, there are quite different concerns for 
conlangers besides ease of readability for speakers!

On 2019/04/30 7:14, BPJ wrote:
> I recall now actually having read that article! And it is consistent with
> how most well-established orthographies work — with English and (Central)
> Tibetan being probable exceptions and French and Modern Greek being
> possible (partial?) exceptions. Interestingly my romanization of Sohlob
> follows this principle: when the singular indefinite clitic _-hAh_ — which
> is historically derived from _hah_ 'one' but undergoes vowel harmony — is
> attached to a word (which may be a noun or an adjective since the clitic
> goes at the end of the NP) which underlyingly ends in a voiced stop I write
> the corresponding "voiceless" stop, since the result is a voiceless
> unaspirated stop, and quite possibly the opposition between _b, d, j, g_
> and _p, t, č, k_ is quite possibly one of aspiration to the native speaker
> sitting somewhere in the conlang center of my brain. Thus _zoǧd_
> 'elephant(s)' but _zoǧtah_ 'an elephant'. Nevertheless I write _zoǧd_ even
> though it undergoes final devoicing — I tend to transcribe [zɒʁ̥d̥]
> although my pronunciation is actually [zɒχtʰ], to say nothing of "the
> native speaker". It is interesting that I romanize _ǧ_ in both forms
> although phonetically it is [χ] in both cases. Both consonants are voiced
> when a suffix beginning with a voiced sound is added, as in the adessive
> _zoǧdat_ — pronounced [zɒʁdɑt] — which I cited earlier today (in error
> since that example should actually have had _zoǧtahat_ to agree with its
> gloss! :-), where the _a_ in _"-at"_  actually is the original final vowel
> of the stem Cheshirizing.

Yup, that all seems perfectly in line with Snider's LOH. Final devoicing 
is postlexical, but the stop-H merger is lexical; so you ignore the one 
and write the other.

(You've got some interesting stuff going on in Sohlob!)

>
> AFMOOC (as for my own other conlang) Euia Twas roman orthography quite
> possibly violates the principle, since the glide [ɐ̯] which arguably is the
> syllable final allophone of /ɾ/ and the syllabic [ɐ] which arguably is
> underlyingly /aɾ/ are written ‹a› and ‹áa› respectively.
> Consociolinguistically I chalk it down to three factors: (1) that a
> non-native (Welsh/English) speaker was instrumental in the creation of
> roman ET, (2) that the brahmic ET orthography uses special allographs of
> ‹r› in the relevant positions, and (3) that speakers of the Wttaa dialect
> *don't* have the lenition, which speakers of all dialects are aware of.
> OTOH roman ET is probably "correct" when it has a separate grapheme ‹u› for
> [ɥ], since although _u_ is arguably always derived from /j/ (_i_), /w/
> (_w_) or /ɰ/ (_y_) it is far from always clear which of those three is
> underlying when [ɥ] appears in a root, so speakers would probably be aware
> of it. OT3H speakers are not aware that ‹eu› is pronounced [œɥ] rather than
> [ɛɥ], and hence no /œ/ phoneme or grapheme is needed.
>
> So, my discussion of Swedish vowel length in the other thread boils down
> to: it's possibly prelexical since morphological structure is involved in
> determining it, so speakers are aware of it, also because there are a
> number of proper/place names, all loans, where it possibly is phonemic. I
> still maintain that positing phonemic length for every surface long vowel
> is not only unnecessary but SE&W. That I who used to be a native speaker of
> German, which has phonemic vowel length feel so is interesting if not
> significant.
>
>
> Den tis 30 apr. 2019 12:11Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]> skrev:
>
>> I've got a half-written reply to the original PSI thread, but for now:
>>
>> On Mon, 29 Apr 2019 16:39:16 -0500, Aidan Aannestad <[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>> For the //n// -> [θ] thing you might do what Irish orthography sometimes
>>>> does and write both the underlying and the surface consonant: ‹nth› or
>>>> ‹thn›, at least if those don't occur as clusters, or don't in the
>> relevant
>>>> context.
>>> That's an interesting thought, actually. It wouldn't work for the crazy
>>> deep orthography (<nth> would be ambiguous between /θ/ and /nɨθ/, but
>>> for an orthography that writes all the surface vowels, that could work
>>> well - there are no surface clusters of any kind. It's kind of clunky in
>>> terms of characters per segment, but that's not the end of the world.
>>> Irish for sure couldn't care less about that measurement!
>>>
>>> There's a couple of derived-only segments that would have to be
>>> exceptions (since they don't occur outside this morphophonemic context,
>>> so there's no premade letter to add for them), but non-double-spellings
>>> <jh> and <wh> wouldn't be used for anything else, so it's probably not a
>>> big deal.
>>>
>>> OTOH if there were any native speakers, they might not care about the
>>> difference between derived and underived /θ/. It'd be hard to predict if
>>> they would or not.
>> <https://www.academia.edu/38201991/Orthography_and_phonological_depth.pdf>
>> is a paper which might allow you to make predictions about this sort of
>> thing.  Snider, working in Lexical Phonology, claims that speakers want
>> alternations represented in the spelling iff they occur in the output of
>> the lexical phonology stratum, i.e. only postlexical process should be
>> unwritten.  See in particular the "layman's guide" in the Conclusion (p.
>> 19) for how to tell whether a process belongs or doesn't belong to this
>> level, if you're new to lexical phonology (as am I).
>>
>> Alex
>>


---
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