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CONLANG  May 2019, Week 3

CONLANG May 2019, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Random thought: on seven tenses

From:

Daniel Bensen <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 16 May 2019 12:22:32 +0300

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (138 lines)

Yeah, I think you're right. I was wondering about my translation for
yondeiru even as I wrote it.

On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 3:47 PM Bryan Linton <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Hello Daniel,
>
> While I'm not a native (or even a near-native) speaker of Japanese,
> I think that a minor adjustment to the second translation is necessary.
>
> On 2019-05-14 15:20:04, Daniel Bensen <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > Doesn't Japanese work like that?
> > 妹が読む本を見た。
> > little.SISTER subj. READ-non.past BOOK SEE-past
> > (She) saw the book that her sister would read
> >
> > 妹が読んでいる本を見た。
> > little.SISTER subj. READ-prog BOOK SEE-past
> > (she) saw the book that her sister had read (completely)
> >
>
> In this case, the meaning I get is:
> (She) saw the book that her sister was reading".
>
> It's correctly marked as READ-prog, but the translation
> "had read (completely)" would imply READ-cont. However, (to the best of
> my knowledge) 読む is not a verb that can be interpreted as CONT.
>
> Some verbs can be either PROG or CONT, and context must determine which.
> Others are always interpreted as one or the other.
>
> A classical example that is often given is "死んでいる" (die-CONT),
> because it is one that often trips up native English speakers. The
> reason being that it always carries the meaning of "is already dead".
> However, native English speakers (and presumably others whose language
> uses a similar construct) often mistakenly interpret and use it to
> mean "is not dead yet, but will be soon" as in "He's dying of cancer".
>
> To my (non-native) ears, if one wanted to say,
> "(She) saw the book that her sister had read (completely)"
> One would most likely say something like:
> 妹が読みきった本を見た。
> little.SISTER subj. READ-complete BOOK acc. SEE-past
>
> However, I will stand aside should a native Japanese speaker disagree.
>
> Nevertheless, your original point of the main verb changing the time
> reference of the other verbs in the sentence still stands.
>
>
> > 妹が読んだ本を見た.
> > little.SISTER subj. READ-past BOOK SEE-past
> > (she) saw the book that her sister had read (at some point in the past)
> >
> > There are alternate interpretations of the first two, but I think these
> are
> > the meanings that a Japanese speaker would assume in the absence of other
> > context (correct me if I'm wrong).
> > In any case, I think this is what you're talking about, where the main
> verb
> > of the sentence sets the time frame for the whole sentence, and other
> verbs
> > change tense in relation to the time when the main verb took place.
> >
> > Dan
> >
> > On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 3:38 AM Gary Shannon <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > > past of the past ..............I saw (past) the boy that (previously)
> broke
> > > (past of the past) the window.
> > > past (present of the past) ....I saw (past) the boy that was breaking
> > > (present of the past) the window.
> > > future of the past ............I saw (past) the boy that would break
> > > (future of the past) the window (which is already broken in the
> present).
> > > present .......................I see (present) the boy that breaks (is
> > > breaking) (present) the window.
> > > past of the future ............I will see(future) the boy that will
> have
> > > broken (past of the future) the window (which is not yet broken in the
> > > present).
> > > future (present of the future).I will see the boy (while he will be)
> > > breaking the window.
> > > future of the future ..........I will see the boy who will then break
> the
> > > window (but only after I see him).
> > >
> > > The seven tenses of "break" might be seven different inflections, or
> the
> > > regular past, present and future inflections might be used by
> convention.
> > > Note that these would have different temporal relationships than what
> the
> > > example English sentences imply, but would be interpreted as noted in a
> > > conlang.
> > >
> > > I saw the boy who broke the window. past of the past. First boy breaks
> > > window, then I see him.
> > > I saw the boy who breaks the window. (present of the past) Boy breaks
> > > window and I see him simultaneously in the past.
> > > I saw the boy who will break the window. (future of the past) Boy will
> > > break the window after I see him, all before now.
> > > I see the boy who breaks the window. (present of the present) Boy
> breaks
> > > window and I see him simultaneously, in the present.
> > > I will see the boy who broke the window. (past of the future) Boy will
> > > break the window, in the future, and I will afterwards see him in the
> more
> > > distant future.
> > > I will see the boy who breaks the window. (present of the future) I
> will
> > > see the boy and he will break the window simultaneously in the future.
> > > I will see the boy who will break the window. (future of the future) I
> will
> > > see the boy, and at a more distant future time, he will break the
> window.
> > >
> > > I was just noodling around with verbs and wondering about using only
> the
> > > main verb of the sentence to set the temporal reference point, and then
> > > putting secondary verbs in other clauses in a relative tense based on
> the
> > > temporal framework of the principal verb. Translating, for example, the
> > > English: "She peeped into the book that her sister was reading." as:
> "She
> > > peeped into book that sister reads." With the present of "read" being
> taken
> > > to refer to the present of the past, not the present of the present.
> > >
> > > --gary
> > >
> >
>
> --
> Bryan
>

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