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CONLANG  May 2019, Week 3

CONLANG May 2019, Week 3

Subject:

Re: On the Semantics of Mood

From:

Stewart Fraser <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 16 May 2019 10:55:36 +0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (80 lines)

I am quibbling here. But no harm in a little quibble.

And said … “The present tense is compatible with events construed holistically and as wholly occurring at the present moment.”

Now when say “present tense” are you talking about language (1) ? or are you talking about that REALITY (2) which is described by language ?

Failure to distinguish between (1) and (2) leads to a lot of talking in circles, a lot of confusion.

If you are mean (1) then things are language specific. Present tense (1) it is the morpheme(s) a certain languages takes to present tense (2). These same morphemes usually intrude into the semantic fields of habitual (tense ?) and progressive (aspect ?)* and every language differs in how this intrusion patterns.

It would not be proper to talk about present tense (1) without mentioning the specific language at least. So I will assume you are talking about present tense (2).

Present tense is the infinitely small slice of time occurring NOW. Now the human brain can’t do much in an infinitely small slice of time so lets make it 0.5 of a second centred on NOW. 

Now when you said “The present tense is compatible with events construed holistically and as wholly occurring at the present moment” I guess you must be taking about verbs with punctual aktionsart here (you said “wholly occurring”). So you reckon a verb such as “blink” would be compatible with present tense (2).

I can see it being compatible in the imperative mood.

However I can not see it happening in the indicative mood (the most important mood, you could even say the default mood).

The nearest you could get to it is “He’s just blinked”

So I disagree with “The present tense is compatible with events construed holistically and as wholly occurring at the present moment”.

   … Stewart

> On May 16, 2019, at 6:43 AM, And Rosta <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 15 May 2019 at 19:34, Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
> 
>> Hallo conlangers!
>> 
>> On 14/05/19 23:28, And Rosta wrote:
>> 
>>> I think I would say tense and aspect are entirely orthogonal, in that
>> each
>>> tense is in principle compatible with each aspect; whereas, tense and
>>> modality and illocution and modality are not entirely orthogonal: certain
>>> illocutions necessarily impose certain modalities on their propositional
>>> argument; and deictic future is at least as much a modality as it is a
>>> tense. Nevertheless, I was only quibbling, and you are of course right
>> that
>>> mood comprehends not only modality but also illocution (and
>> evidentiality).
>> 
>> I don't think tense and aspect are entirely orthogonal. The present
>> tense is by definition referring to *ongoing* events, i. e. it is
>> imperfective. If a language has a "perfective present", it is usually
>> meaning something else, such as in Slavic, where what looks like a
>> "perfective present" actually is a future tense. (Or, the language is a
>> conlang done by somebody who hasn't thought enough about this matter.)
>> There are plenty of languages that distinguish aspect only in the past
>> tense (e. g., Proto-Indo-European) and plenty of languages that
>> distinguish tense only in the imperfective aspect (e. g., Georgian).
>> 
> 
> It is understandable if a language grammaticizes aspect only in past tense,
> but it is not true that the present tense by definition refers to ongoing
> events; the present tense is compatible with events construed holistically
> and as wholly occurring at the present moment. But because that is the less
> usual case, it is less likely to be grammaticized. As I replied to BP, who
> had made the same response as you, "In English we find no end of felicitous
> present tense perfectives, e.g. in narrative present, in plot summaries,
> in live commentary, in performatives ("I hereby name this ship Hepsibah").
> (The English Simple Present is unspecified for perfectivity, may receive
> perfective or imperfective construal; the same goes for Simple Past, except
> to the marginal extent that some speakers take the strong/weak preterite
> alternation that exists for certain verbs (e.g. leant/leaned) to express a
> perfective/imperfective distinction.) In some of those contexts where we
> get present tense perfectives the present tense seems merely temporally
> unspecified rather than tied to the deictic now (plot summaries; arguably
> the narrative present), but in other contexts (live commentary;
> performatives) they seem incontrovertibly semantically present tense." I
> might add to this that nonfinite verbs may also receive both perfective and
> imperfective construals too. Off the top of my head, the only constructions
> that restrict verbs to one aspectual construal, apart from those marginal
> leant/leaned cases, are ones like "used to" and the progressive.
> 
> --And.

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