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CONLANG  May 2019, Week 4

CONLANG May 2019, Week 4

Subject:

Re: THEORY: Language-culture correlation

From:

Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 22 May 2019 18:50:22 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (163 lines)

Hallo conlangers!

On 22/05/19 15:35, Raymond Brown wrote:

> On 21/05/2019 21:59, Jim Thain wrote:
>> The only part of your answer I have real problems with is: "most
>> linguists are aware that only writing tells us anything about
>> language."
>>
>> In which case the comparative method is bunk?
>
> To which oOn 22/05/2019 10:32, BPJ replied: "I meant 'in an
> archaeological context', and should have said so explicitly obviously."
> Thus confirming what I suspected, BPJ was _not_ debunking the
> comparative method.

Indeed not! BPJ is a good linguist and versed in historical linguistics,
and certainly knows very well how useful and valuable the comparative
method is.

> But, of course, the comparative method for reconstructing PIE and other
> similar proto-languages relies upon written evidence.  Therfore, the
> reconstruction is only as reliable, at best, as the written evidence
> allows.  As new discoveries come along, the reconstruction gets modified.

Of course, one can reconstruct starting with the languages of today, but
it is the ancient written records which allow us to reconstruct PIE with
so much detail. For instance, the Uralic language family is probably not
deeper than IE, but without ancient written records, we know much less
about Proto-Uralic than about PIE. Imagine how hard it would be to
reconstruct PIE based on Hindi and French. Fortunately, we have Sanskrit
and Latin, which allow us to get a much clearer picture because they
provide us with vantage points in the past.

> When I was a youngster the reconstructed PIE generally given at the time
> was somewhat different from current model(s).  With more evidence from
> the Anatolian group, the laryngeal theory/theories developed and our
> understanding changed and deepened.

Indeed. Brugmannian PIE is now obsolete, which probably means that the
present model is not the final word either.

> But it has been said on this list in the past that PIE,
> Proto-Hamito-Simitic and so forth are _conlangs_ - at best they give a
> general idea of what the language may have been like.  The only hard
> evidence are the written records.

Reconstructed languages have also been likened to constellations in the
night sky (I forgot by whom): just as constellations consist of stars at
different distances, reconstructed languages may consist of subsystems
that existed at different points in time. They are always *models* of a
lost prehistoric reality, nothing more.

> In the case of modern spoken languages we now have the additional
> evidence of recoded speech; but, in the cases where a language has a
> written record that gives us some idea of very recent changes.
>
> The comparative method has limitation.  If e.g. all written Classical
> Latin texts had been lost, there is no way the language could have been
> recoonstructed.  The Romance languages allow us to posit a
> reconstruction of Vulgar Latin, but that language differed in important
> respects from the Classical language; our knowledge of the latter
> depends solely on written records.

Yes. For instance, we could reconstruct only a two-case system - nothing
(within Romance, of course - other branches indeed show richer case
systems) would tell us that the oblique case is a merger of three
different cases, or that the genitive was ever expressed in any other
way than a preposition _*dê_ governing the oblique. (Unless one assumes
that the different two-case system of Rumanian is old - more and more
specialists now consider it an innovation - or that the Italian surnames
ending in -i preserve old genitives - a notion I used to hold for some
time, but I can't think of an actual linguist maintaining such a
position.) Or that Classical Latin *didn't* have articles.

> Consider the difficulties in (re)construction Cornish for the Cornish
> revival.  It led to four or five rival Cornishes, and only now is a
> common form emerging.
>
> In short, the comparative method has limitations and depends upon
> written records of descendant languages.  Nor, alas, do written records
> give as much information as we would like.  If the writing is more or
> less phonemic as, e.g. ancient Greek, we can get only a general idea of
> its phonemics - there are still uncertainties, e.g. how word pitch
> accent worked and, more than once in the past, there has been
> disagreement over the Classical (5th/4th cent. BC) pronunciation of ζ
> (zeta).

Correct.

> But in the case of ancient Egyptian which did have two written forms,
> hieroglyphics and hieratic, extending over several centuries we have
> less information.  We can get a more less general idea of the
> _consonants_ of the language, but we learn nothing of its vowels. We
> have use comparative methods to supply this information as far as we
> can.   When it comes to largely logographic scripts the effort to
> recover the phonology of the language becomes much greater.

Which means, for instance, that the phonology of Chinese as it was
spoken during the Han Dynasty, for instance, must be reconstructed using
the comparative method, starting from the modern Chinese dialects,
despite the existence a huge amount of writing from that period! And
because of the difficulties involved there, it is still customary to
give names from ancient China in their modern Mandarin form (transcribed
in Pinyin, Wade-Giles or whatever).

>> I recently watched a program (Nova: The first Horse Warriors), in
>> which they linked PIE to a culture they call the Yaminaya. I would
>> call that linking tentative, we probably don't know enough about
>> them to be sure if they are the tribe, or collection of tribes, that
>> eventually overran most of Europe. However these people did come
>> from the area that 'most' linguists agree was the IE 'homeland'. We
>> can't know for sure wether that is absolutely true, but it is a
>> plausible theory.
>
> What is called circumstantial evidence; and in the past when such
> circumstantial evidence has been taken as hard evidence much mischief
> has resulted.

Sure. While the majority of specialists now consider it *likely* that
Late PIE was spoken by the bearers of the Yamnaya culture, this remains
a conjecture, and some alternative hypotheses exist which can't be
dismissed out of hand but need to be seriously examined. We'll probably
never know for sure, even if genetic evidence (which is of course a
fast-moving growth industry these days) seems to corroborate the
PIE=Yamnaya theory. But the combination of linguistics and genetics
needs to be handled with great care; the risk of falling back into
linguistic racism and reinvigorating obsolete notions of an "Aryan race"
are far too great! I don't know whether white nationalists these days
capitalize on such things as Y-DNA haplogroups, but it wouldn't surprise
me if they did!

> [snip]
>> The trouble comes with linking the right people to the right
>> language.
>
> It is. Also the notion that one language (or rather group of dialects,
> for there was no standardized PIE or any other proto=language)
> necessarily equals one people is a dangerous concept as the theories of
> the Nazis showed only too well.  It is clear from the modern world that
> languages spread to differing peoples not only through conquest but
> through trade and diffusion.

Indeed!

>> It is, in the absence of writing very difficult, but writing came
>> about fairly recently. So we break things up into History, what
>> happened after writing was invented, and Pre-History, which is much
>> more ephemeral, even with hard archaeological evidence.
>>
>> Probably one of those things we will never be entirely sure of short
>> of time travel unfortunately.
>
> We can never be certain of pre-history; not even all written records
> have been fully deciphered.  Some, like Etruscan, are imperfectly known,
> and others like the Indus Valley Script still cannot be read.

Yep.

--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html

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