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CONLANG  July 2019, Week 5

CONLANG July 2019, Week 5

Subject:

Re: Languages without recursion (was: Macrofamilies)

From:

Logan Kearsley <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 29 Jul 2019 23:49:23 -0600

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (68 lines)

On Mon, Jul 29, 2019, 10:24 PM Gleki Arxokuna <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

> On Mon, Jul 29, 2019, 10:14 PM Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> > Hallo conlangers!
> >
> > On 29/07/19 20:16, And Rosta wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, 29 Jul 2019, 15:27 Jörg Rhiemeier, <[log in to unmask]>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >> I consider it very likely that Neanderthals had language, though their
> > >> languages may perhaps have been a bit less sophisticated than ours
> > (maybe
> > >> they lacked recursion).
> > >
> > > What would a recursionless language be like? How might we discern its
> > > recursionlessness?
> >
> > In a language without recursion, a node may not be superordinate to
> > another node of the same or higher class. For instance, a noun phrase
> > may consist of words, but not include another noun phrase or even a
> > clause. There is thus a finite number of syntactic levels which cannot
> > be exceeded.
>
> Which must be true for any type of recursion, right? We have brains of
> limited size.
>
> "I know that you don't know that they yesterday realized that Alice
> hadn't..." Stop! Stack overflow.
>

Not necessarily. Our brains can only handle a limited amount of
center-embedded recursion, but strict left- or right-branching recursion
(i.e., tail recursion) isn't a problem

AFAIK, all natlangs allow recursion, though a lack of
> > recursion has been claimed for Pirahã.
>
>
> I think even crows showed recursion in solving riddles like "use this stick
> to reach that stick with which you would reach a piece of meat".
>
> And now humans don't?
> Or some languages just use phantom nodes too much?
>

There is a difference between conceptual semantics recursion and formal
syntactic recursion. You can have non-recursive languages that encode
recursive semantics (like neo-Davidsonian predicate calculus) and,
vice-versa, recursive languages that rncode strictly non-recursive
semantics (the first generation of high-level programming languages were of
this type, as well as many modern special-purpose languages).

Designing a natural-looking recursionless human language isn't terribly
difficult. I'm sure there are multiple ways it could be done, but the
obvious one is to just use a lot of coordination and anaphor. There are
lots of natural languages for which large subsets are de-facto
recursionless (some Salish languages, some dialects of Indonesian,
certainly many others which I am less familiar with), and one could get a
fully recursionless language simply by taking the relevant discourse styles
to an extreme, and just choosing not to use the syntactic recursion
facilities which those languages would otherwise allow.

-l.

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