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CONLANG  July 2019, Week 5

CONLANG July 2019, Week 5

Subject:

Re: Languages without recursion (was: Macrofamilies)

From:

Daniel Bensen <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 31 Jul 2019 18:33:44 +0300

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (105 lines)

Didn't it turn out that Everett had confused a conjunction for a coupla?

On Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 4:02 PM BPJ <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Dan Everett points out, describes and exemplifies that Pirahã has
> discourse-level recursion, so there is no doubt or fear that Pirahã
> speakers can handle recursion conceptually. It's just that according to DE
> the language forbids, or rather has no mechanism for, recursion at sentence
> and lower levels. FWIW he also points out that the Pirahã have a concept of
> full siblings although the language has no word for 'full sibling'. It's
> not that their brains are deficient in any way. They can't really do
> arithmetics, but that shows either that arithmetics is an acquired cultural
> artefact which requires work and motivation, or that at least many of them
> have congenital dyscalculia. So do I. I'm as intelligent as anybody with
> anything except that I suck at arithmetics and at judging duration,
> distance and quantity, swap digits around when reading, writing and
> memorizing numbers, and can't remember math formulas however much I try.
> This is hereditary in my father's family, affecting at least one person in
> every second generation with varying severity. I can cope but have to
> repeat all calculations at least thrice even with a calculator. Thus I
> suspect that the oddity of Pirahã language and culture which Everett
> describes is due to endemic dyscalculia. (In case you wonder I am as good
> at recursion as anybody. I do forget to use `timeout` when testing
> potentially recursing programs from time to time but who doesn't? :-)
>
> Den tis 30 juli 2019 07:49Logan Kearsley <[log in to unmask]> skrev:
>
> > On Mon, Jul 29, 2019, 10:24 PM Gleki Arxokuna <
> [log in to unmask]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, Jul 29, 2019, 10:14 PM Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hallo conlangers!
> > > >
> > > > On 29/07/19 20:16, And Rosta wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On Mon, 29 Jul 2019, 15:27 Jörg Rhiemeier, <[log in to unmask]
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> I consider it very likely that Neanderthals had language, though
> > their
> > > > >> languages may perhaps have been a bit less sophisticated than ours
> > > > (maybe
> > > > >> they lacked recursion).
> > > > >
> > > > > What would a recursionless language be like? How might we discern
> its
> > > > > recursionlessness?
> > > >
> > > > In a language without recursion, a node may not be superordinate to
> > > > another node of the same or higher class. For instance, a noun phrase
> > > > may consist of words, but not include another noun phrase or even a
> > > > clause. There is thus a finite number of syntactic levels which
> cannot
> > > > be exceeded.
> > >
> > > Which must be true for any type of recursion, right? We have brains of
> > > limited size.
> > >
> > > "I know that you don't know that they yesterday realized that Alice
> > > hadn't..." Stop! Stack overflow.
> > >
> >
> > Not necessarily. Our brains can only handle a limited amount of
> > center-embedded recursion, but strict left- or right-branching recursion
> > (i.e., tail recursion) isn't a problem
> >
> > AFAIK, all natlangs allow recursion, though a lack of
> > > > recursion has been claimed for Pirahã.
> > >
> > >
> > > I think even crows showed recursion in solving riddles like "use this
> > stick
> > > to reach that stick with which you would reach a piece of meat".
> > >
> > > And now humans don't?
> > > Or some languages just use phantom nodes too much?
> > >
> >
> > There is a difference between conceptual semantics recursion and formal
> > syntactic recursion. You can have non-recursive languages that encode
> > recursive semantics (like neo-Davidsonian predicate calculus) and,
> > vice-versa, recursive languages that rncode strictly non-recursive
> > semantics (the first generation of high-level programming languages were
> of
> > this type, as well as many modern special-purpose languages).
> >
> > Designing a natural-looking recursionless human language isn't terribly
> > difficult. I'm sure there are multiple ways it could be done, but the
> > obvious one is to just use a lot of coordination and anaphor. There are
> > lots of natural languages for which large subsets are de-facto
> > recursionless (some Salish languages, some dialects of Indonesian,
> > certainly many others which I am less familiar with), and one could get a
> > fully recursionless language simply by taking the relevant discourse
> styles
> > to an extreme, and just choosing not to use the syntactic recursion
> > facilities which those languages would otherwise allow.
> >
> > -l.
> >
>

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