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CONLANG  July 2019, Week 5

CONLANG July 2019, Week 5

Subject:

Re: Languages without recursion (was: Macrofamilies)

From:

Logan Kearsley <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 31 Jul 2019 21:10:33 -0600

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (154 lines)

On Wed, 31 Jul 2019 at 15:31, Mike S. <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 1:21 PM Logan Kearsley <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, 31 Jul 2019 at 09:34, Daniel Bensen <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Didn't it turn out that Everett had confused a conjunction for a coupla?
> >
> > And....
> >
> > On Wed, 31 Jul 2019 at 10:47, Mike S. <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 9:02 AM BPJ <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Dan Everett points out, describes and exemplifies that Pirahã has
> > > > discourse-level recursion, so there is no doubt or fear that Pirahã
> > > > speakers can handle recursion conceptually. It's just that according
> to DE
> > > > the language forbids, or rather has no mechanism for, recursion at
> > > sentence
> > > > and lower levels.
> > >
> > > No recursion at sentence and lower levels is a radical claim.  It would
> > > mean, for instance, either there is nothing adjective-like in the
> language,
> > > or there is a hard limit of one adjective-like thing per noun phrase;
> > > anything like (adj1 (adj2 noun)) would be out because it could be
> analyzed
> > > as a NP nested in a NP.  I am skeptical.
> >
> > Lack of conjunctions seems like the biggest apparent obstacle to an
> > ergonomic recursionless language (though not to a recursionless
> > language of some sort), and lack of chained adjectives falls into a
> > similar boat. However, I think these are both cases where mistaking a
> > particular *model* for psychological *reality* muddies the issue.
> > *Can* be analyzed a certain way, and *must* be analyzed a certain way,
> > are rather different things.
> >
> > Many of us I expect are predisposed from our formal education to think
> > that syntax trees must necessarily be *binary* trees, but this is not
> > necessarily the case. Yes, in fully binarized, e.g., X-bar theory,
> > there must be formal syntactic recursion in order to model conjunction
> > chains and modified chains--but that does not mean that such recursion
> > actually exists in the language as it is found in the minds of the
> > speakers. And a different syntactic analysis makes the problem go
> > away.
>
> I see binary branching and recursion as independent things.

So do I, but they are related things, in that there are structures
which can be produced by a non-recursive grammar of arbitrary arity
which, in a strictly binarized grammar, can only be accomplished with
recursion.

> If we're talking about realizing a recursionless language, it's not clear
> to me how you propose to make the problem go away.  In the case of
> conjunctions, I would count any non-binary rule of a form similar to "NP :=
> NP CONJ NP" as plainly recursive.  In the case of adjectives, I would count
> a rule like "NP := ADJ* NOUN" as also recursive (the asterisk, veiling the
> recursion, amounts to syntactic sugar).  Wouldn't you agree that such rules
> are inherently recursive (regardless of exact formulation or the symbolism
> employed)?

No, I would not. That's the binary-branching prejudice creeping
through. A rule like "NP := ADJ* NOUN" is only "inherently recursive"
if you first *choose* to treat purely binary grammars as the One True
Reality, with the Kleene star operator being a piece of syntactic
sugar that represents a more complicated purely binary (and recursive)
rule underneath. But, that is in fact a choice. There is no
fundamental need for it. Especially since the Kleene star operator
originates from the notation for regular expressions, which are
explicitly designed to be incapable of encoding truly fundamentally
recursive languages!

To avoid recursion with conjunctions, you can either make higher
levels polymorphic in their child node types, or just introduce an
extra conjunction-phrase level above every potentially-coordinatable
type which can sometimes have a null realization.

> With respect to Daniel Everett, as far as I can tell, he isn't arguing that
> the recursive analysis of "ADJ* NOUN" is a fiction.  He's arguing that the
> sequence (or its analogue) doesn't exist in Pirahã, nor does presumably
> anything else like it (ADV* VERB perhaps?).  That's where I am skeptical.

Well, I can't comment on that, having not read the argument in
question myself. But if he is in fact making that (significantly
stronger!) claim, then I would agree that it does seem worthy of
greater scepticism.

> > > According to what I read, the dyscalculia is more severe than what you
> have
> > > described.  They cannot count past two, which I am guessing you can do.
> > > They are able to understand that if you take an item away from a group
> of
> > > items, you have a smaller group of items remaining.  But they
> (apparently)
> > > don't get the idea that the group of items started as "six in number"
> and
> > > after taking one it's now "five in number".  Apparently, for the adult
> men
> > > who were tested, there is no concept of an exact number, of a
> cardinality
> > > that can be named.  Perhaps for them (I am speculating), the idea of
> > > individuality simply loses its coherence in groups above two;  groups of
> > > threes and more are always conceived as masses (i.e. having an
> "undefined
> > > cardinality" in my way of thinking -- to put it another way, the
> > > interlocked ideas of individuality and countability simply don't apply
> to,
> > > or  fail to make sense with, the referent entity).  To put it yet
> another
> > > way, they can't count because from their point of view there is nothing
> > > there to count.
> > >
> > > It's really hard to believe this, but this is what has been claimed,
> > > assuming I understood what I read.
> >
> > I dunno. That doesn't seem all *that* far out to me. Counting and
> > arithmetic are culturally-taught "cognitive technologies", and even in
> > the absence of genetic discalculia is seems reasonable to me that
> > there may be a critical period for learning them, after which
> > acquisition of the cognitive mechanism as an adult is practically
> > impossible. Thus, if their culture does not find use for counting
> > larger quantities, they simply won't learn to do it.
>
> The "learning window" idea makes sense.  However I am not aware there was
> another situation in which all the adults of a tribe could not learn to
> count things and use number words up to ten after being exposed to them;  I
> was under the impression that there have been other peoples in the world
> who lacked numbers beyond two prior to contact with numerate outsiders, but
> AFAIK they were always able to learn how to count using words when
> introduced to the idea.
>
> > Of course, doing controlled experiments to confirm the cultural basis
> > of counting-above-two would be incredibly unethical, so I guess we'll
> > just be stuck with speculation on this.
> >
> > -l.
> We'll have more evidence of what's going on if the educators are able to
> teach the children how to count.  If so, then the learning window would
> seem to be the likely explanation.   If not, that might suggest something
> genetic in this small community, or perhaps a poorly understood Sapir-Whorf
> effect.

Indeed. Of course, it is also entirely possible that there is no
critical-period effect for numeracy like there is for language, but
that numeracy is nevertheless a culturally-transmitted skill which
will not naturally develop, even in normally-intelligent adults, if
the culture feels no need for it.

-l.

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June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
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December 2003, Week 3
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November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
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October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
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February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
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August 2000, Week 3
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August 2000, Week 1
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July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 3
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April 2000, Week 1
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March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
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October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
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August 1999, Week 3
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August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
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July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
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May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
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January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 1
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