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CONLANG  July 2019, Week 5

CONLANG July 2019, Week 5

Subject:

Re: Macrofamilies

From:

"Mike S." <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 29 Jul 2019 13:05:46 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (56 lines)

On Mon, Jul 29, 2019 at 10:27 AM Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
>
> IE and Uralic have many parts of morphology in common, to a point that
> descent from a common ancestor is the most likely explanation. Yet,
> nobody has so far succeeded in establishing sound correspondences or
> reconstructing the common ancestor language in a convincing way.

I harbor some doubt as to whether even *this* macro reconstruction, which
is probably the most hopeful of the many proposed, is possible. There are a
few similar endings, but there are also major differences between the
reconstructed morphophonologies of the two proto languages. PIE is rich in
consonants, including three series of plosives and its famous "laryngeal"
sounds; PU is rich in vowels, including rounded front vowels.  PIE had
mobile stress at some early time, giving rise to its complex apophonic stem
alternations; PU had fixed stress on the first syllable and displayed vowel
harmony.  PIE roots are all about the consonants; PU roots contain
contrastive vowels.  The resemblance is not super compelling IMHO, and if I
am not mistaken the number of proposed cognates is rather small, which is
only to be expected given the degree of morphophonological reshaping that
must have ensued in one or both branches, placing the whole hypothesis in a
great deal of doubt.

In contrast when I look at ancient Greek and Sanskrit (just in terms of
morphophonology, not even taking the huge number of cognates into account),
I see languages that are clearly related. Yet estimates for when Late PIE
was last spoken are usually a couple thousand years prior.  Let's say it
was spoken some time in the fourth millennium BC.  Early PIE, encompassing
Anatolian, then is maybe fifth millennium BC.  So the time of
Proto-Indo-Uralic, if it existed, must be something like the eighth
millennium BC, and for all I know maybe the tenth millennium BC.  Not a
single word of this language or any intermediate stage was ever recorded as
vast phonological changes ensued.  All I can say is "good luck"!  But maybe
I am wrong, and maybe we do have enough data to reconstruct something that
will be regarded as convincing by skeptical Uralic and IE specialists.  I
would be happy to see that happen;  I am just doubtful.

When it comes to Nostratic (what, 15th mil. BC?!), though, it really seems
like the limit has been passed.  It's like being on a road trip listening
to a radio station.  As you move away, the signal gets weaker and the words
being broadcast increasingly hard to understand.  Then there comes a point
when the signal simply does not come in.  I would guess we are well outside
Nostratic's "broadcast radius".  Whether any putative reconstructed "root"
or whatnot from that far back is real or an illusion caused by random
chance is really hard if not impossible to discern.

> (http://www.frathwiki.com/Indo-Uralic/Roadmap). This is not something an
> amateur equipped with etymological dictionaries of IE and Uralic could
> bang together in a year or two; it is a research project that could
> support an academic linguist's (or several such linguists') entire career.

That's a link worth a look if you're a hobbyist (like me) thinking about
charging in "where angels fear to tread".

-Mike

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