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AUXLANG  March 1997, Week 2

AUXLANG March 1997, Week 2

Subject:

Re: AUXLANG: Use of {x} & {q} (& {w}) in CIALs (incl. Novial..)

From:

"Mr B.Philip.Jonsson [Seeker of Useless Knowledge]" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 10 Mar 1997 11:49:13 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (126 lines)

At 07:25 9.3.1997 -0800, Leo J. Moser wrote:

>> rmay <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>> >If I were going to use 'qu' in a conlang for recognition purposes, I'd
>> >choose a new pronunciation for 'q', to preserve the one-letter one-sound
>> >principle. Perhaps that of English 'j'.  Therefore 'quand' would be
>> >pronounced 'jwand' or 'joo-and'.  Of course, no other letter would have
>> >that sound.  Having 'q' make a 'k' sound is just too much of an
>> >irregularity for a conlang.
>
>If a conlang has a rather simple phoneme base, say 20-22 phonemes,
>and IF it is deemed useful to have "all 26 letters" capable of use
>....(at least in words related to the ISV)...
>then it is required that either:
>
>1) the extra letters be useless spelling irregularities, OR

Yech! :-S

>2) the extra letters stand for successions of more than one phoneme,
>like [ks] [tS] [dZ] [ts] [kw] -- sequences which must only be written
>with the letter in question.
>
>This latter is, IMO, the far better method. But it means that if you
>accept Q or QU = IPA[kw], you must not also spell [kw] by combinations
>such as 'cua' 'kua' 'qw' 'kwa' 'cwa.'  You simply outlaw such
>successions of letters in the rules of the language -- no problem at
>all.

Yes. But it may also be permissible to allow context-dependent variation in
some cases, as if one wants to preserve the spelling {c} of the Romance
languages and English in as many contexts as possible. From early Normandic
times it was the practice of English scribes to write the /k/ sound with
{c} everywhere except before the letters {e, i, y}, where it was spelled
with the letter {k}. This practice was found also in Scandinavia, and is
known to modern scholars as the "palatal spelling rule". Italian also has
two different spellings for the /k, g/ and /tS, dZ/ sounds, but the
spelling and reading is always predictable from phonemic and graphic
context respectively:

SPELLING:       before {e, i}   elsewhere

SOUND:

/tS/            c               ci

/dZ/            g               gi

/k/             ch              c

/g/             gh              g


I doubt if such a spelling practice will give much valuable returns in a
CIAL, but it is IMO theoretically permissible, since the variation is 100%
regular and predictable.

>>  'X,' then, could be given the /S/ sound:
>> >Examen 'eshamen'.
>
>Leo adds:
>This is what I did in Bahasan 1.001 and 1.002 -- and may return to
>in Bahasan 1.004.
>What do Auxlangers think?

I think that the permissible range of pronunciations for {x} is [ks gz S
x], with the added observation that one should not distinguish
palatoalveolar and palatal sounds in a GIAL -- else [C] would be a
permissible value too. I have occasionally used {x} for IPA /h/ in
Classical Tibetan, while using the letter {h} for the VOICED /h^/ sound of
that language. That's IMO the utmost limit of latitude in the use of {x}.
In fact I think that {x} has something going for it as a symbol for [S],
even apart from its use for that sound in Portuguese, Basque, other
languages whose orthography has been influenced by Medieval Spanish,
Vietnamese and Pinyin Mandarin: the palatal-alveolar sound [S] is in a way
both articulatory and acoustically intermediate between a velar sound and
an alveolar-dental sound, thus suggestive of and suggested by the
traditional [ks] value of the letter {x} in Latin and most European
languages,

>> If we adopt the convention "qu" = [kw]/[kv] (allophonic usage) we are not
>> setting "q" = [k] since "qu" is an indivisible whole.
>
>Leo adds:
>It is a 'digraph' and as such an entity of its own in the graphemic
>system. (i.e., it CANNOT be analyzed into its parts.) Th and Ph act as
>digraphs in English.
>
>> Besides, making letters have values that they do not have in any natural
>> language is to me a far worse defect in an IAL than having two letters
>> with the same sound would be.
>>                 Bruce R. Gilson
>
>Leo adds:
>I agree. In Bahasan 1.003, I have used 'x' for [ts].  This works
>rather well in fact. Yet no language that I know of uses the
>convention. It would not be an obstacle, IMO, to any learner. If
>I do abandon it, and go back to 'x' = [S] (English 'Sh') it will
>not because it is 'unprecedented.'

I think the {x} = /ts/ mapping would be an obstacle and a source of
frustration at early stages of learning. In fact I would not at all include
/ts/ (or for that matter /dz/) as a unitary/unitial phoneme in a GIAL; The
by far most common affricates in the world's languages are of the /tS, dZ/
type. It is true that /ts, dz/ come in second, but still they are a lot
less common across languages than are the /tS dZ/ type. The latter are also
remarcably stable over time even in sound-systems where they don't contrast
with other affricates, which is not the case with most other affricate
sounds. In Eurial I have chosen to allow /ts dz/ as allophones of /(t)S and
(d)Z/ to accomodate speakers of Modern Greek, which has no palatoalveolar
sounds, and regularly replace them by dentals. It took long time to me to
figure out just whom the streets were named after which to my Classical eye
were spelled: ODOS TOU TZON F. KENENTI and ODOS TOU BINSTON TSERTSIL!

Any ConIAL that is afraid to
>do anything unprecedented is in my opinion condemned to triviality.
>(Actually, it could not even exist -- to be meticulous.)

Amen!

>Regards,
>
>Leo
>[log in to unmask]

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January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
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January 2002, Week 1
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December 2001, Week 3
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December 2001, Week 1
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November 2001, Week 3
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November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
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May 2001, Week 1
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March 2001, Week 1
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February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
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December 2000, Week 3
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December 2000, Week 1
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November 2000, Week 3
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November 2000, Week 1
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October 2000, Week 3
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September 2000, Week 4
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March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
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February 2000, Week 1
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December 1998, Week 5
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June 1998, Week 3
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June 1998, Week 1
May 1998, Week 5
May 1998, Week 4
May 1998, Week 3
May 1998, Week 2
May 1998, Week 1
April 1998, Week 5
April 1998, Week 4
April 1998, Week 3
April 1998, Week 2
April 1998, Week 1
March 1998, Week 5
March 1998, Week 4
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March 1998, Week 1
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February 1998, Week 1
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December 1997, Week 5
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March 1997, Week 4
March 1997, Week 3
March 1997, Week 2
March 1997, Week 1
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February 1997, Week 1

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