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AUXLANG Home

AUXLANG  March 1997, Week 2

AUXLANG March 1997, Week 2

Subject:

Re: MORE Sample texts in Novial

From:

Ken Caviness <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 9 Mar 1997 01:28:36 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (182 lines)

At 03:56 AM 08.03.97 -0800, Bruce R. Gilson wrote:

>Ken Caviness <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>>As always, the problem is getting anyone to agree on what is done
>>RIGHT, and what are "design flaws" in the language.  For me, halving
>>the vocabulary by using "mal-" or "des-" was a stroke of genius.

By the way, if I were creating a conlang, I would strongly consider "un-"=20
(yes, it's germanic, not romance!) or "im-" (perhaps unfortunately close to=
=20
"in").

BRG>>>Novial uses qu and x for "kw" and "ks" but generally follows one
BRG>>>letter-one sound. The stress rule is a little more complex than Eo's:
BRG>>>the vowel before the last consonant is stressed.
>
>>I dread those extra little complexities.  Fatal "design flaw".  ;-)
>
>Ken is writing as an Esperantist, and his signature file shows that.=20

It's odd to hear someone call me an Esperantist.  I just enjoy languages,=20
and have spent a lot of time learning various languages.  In college I got=
=20
a major in German on the side, my first teaching position was at a French-
speaking university in Rwanda, I just like languages!  And I insist upon=20
being able to _use_ a language, not just guess at the meaning of what I=20
read.  After feeling fairly comfortable in Esperanto, I started looking=20
at other conlangs as well.  I know what features of Esperanto allowed me=20
to make rapid progress, and it always surprises me when people complain=20
about those very things!

No, I'm not writing primarily "as an Esperantist".  I am writing as a=20
person who read everything in Britannica about conlangs sometime between=20
the ages of 9 and 13 (sorry I don't remember precisely and have never stuck=
=20
to keeping a diary!).  Based on what I read I tried to get more information,=
=20
but ended up deciding _not_ to try to learn any of the contenders.  Why? =20
Because I couldn't decide which was "best".  [So foolish!  If I had learned=
=20
Esperanto then, I could have been corresponding with penpals from all around=
=20
the world, my young life would have been immeasurably enriched.  You see,=20
Esperanto is actually being used now.  I have no interest in a conIAL that=
=20
I can use after my death.]

So I did nothing.   Until I saw mention of Esperanto when I was 26, and=20
thought:  maybe I should take the free course.  But I put it off for=20
another 8 years.  Then I went back to Britannica, and this time saw that=20
there were over 30,000 books published in Esperanto.  I had had no idea=20
that any conlang had achieved such success.  Of course I immediately=20
started the free 10-lesson Esperanto course offered by the Esperanto=20
League for North America.  And I was shocked (pleasantly) at how easy=20
Esperanto is!  I could only afford to spend an hour or two on weekends,=20
but in ten weeks was writing letters, and reading magazines with very=20
little need of a dictionary (circa 1 word per page).  I wish I had waited=20
until a vacation and tried to do it as fast a possible.  Then I would have=
=20
a story to tell.  As it is, I can only say that within a year I worked=20
through a self-teaching book, took an advanced email course, read a number=
=20
of books in Esperanto (about other topics), and volunteered to help with=20
the online version of the (basic) Free Esperanto Course.  In the two=20
years since I have just used Esperanto without having to make an effort.=20
(Alert & inquisitive readers may now pause to calculate my age.)

Why is Esperanto easy?  Because of (1) the straight-forward grammar that=20
reduces complexities, (2) the construction of words from a reduced base=20
vocabulary, (3) many root words look familiar many people.

Many creators of conlangs emphasize (3), but this is the least important of=
=20
the three, since (a) no matter the source of your conlang's words, most=20
people in the world will not know them, (b) the people who think they=20
recognize words will often be hindered by "faux amis"/"false friends",=20
(c) vocabulary learning is a life-long process, even in one's native=20
language, but simple patterns of grammar and word-construction can be=20
mastered in a few days, so the moral is clear: whenever feasible replace=20
vocab with simple constuction, and eliminate ALL spelling irregularities=20
you can.

If I were creating a conlang, I would do some things differently.  If I=20
were very good, I might obtain a product better than Zamenhof's in some=20
ways, but it would _certainly_ be worse in others.  And I'm not merely=20
being humble here.  I think the above statements apply to anyone.

>Esperanto
>is dead. After 100 years it has perhaps 100,000 speakers. I hope that in=
 100
>years, we will have, not 100,000 speakers but 100,000,000.=20

Now and then we get nightmare messages claiming that Esperanto is spoken by=
=20
40 million people, actively supported by The Pope, The President Of The=
 U.S.,=20
and Bill Gates.  Ridiculous.  Equally ridiculous are the messages that claim=
=20
that Esperanto is (1) dead, (2) too artificial to be used in real life, (3)=
=20
a pseudo-language without "soul", (4) too European! (proponents of Romance-
based conlangs take note!), (5) not "European" enough (meaning Romance), or=
=20
(6) much too difficult, and if we only "simplified" a few of some particular=
=20
person's pet peeves, all the world would flock to the standard, and we could=
=20
all march happily arm-in-arm into the millenium.

Get real!  The reason Esperanto doesn't have 100,000,000 speakers has=20
nothing to do with the particular things about it that you don't like.  In=
=20
fact, the things you don't like aren't the same things that I don't like,=20
nor the same things that John Doe doesn't like.  Resurrecting Novial or=20
creating a new conlang won't make a difference.  It won't be easier than=20
Esperanto.  Assuming you could interest a large number of people in it=20
(a BIG assumption), they would immediately start squabbling about various=20
features of the language which _they_ don't like, and either try to reform=
=20
it again, or split off to form another splinter group.  What makes people=20
think their personal private reforms will take the world by storm?  What=20
is needed is a little stability, not constant reform.

>And the way to
>do that is to ruthlessly expunge ANY trace of the mentality that accepts
>Esperanto. We are really starting from scratch. Esperanto is of value to us
>only in that, in improving Volapuek, it showed a few good ideas. But Eo was
>superseded by Ido, and Ido by original Novial, as an example of=
 state-of-the-
>art interlinguistic creation. And only Novial has really reached that=
 point,
>nearly enough to look really good. But even Jespersen did not do everything
>that was implied by his own principles. And we are making improvements.
>
>                                Bruce R. Gilson

Brave New World.  Get real!  All you are doing is dividing our energies. =20

Learn from the mistakes of the past.  How many hundred conlangs have been=20
invented this century?  Dozens of pan-romance, pan-slav, pan-germanic, pan-
asian, any variety you want.  The authors were ALL convinced they had a=20
better product.  But the world didn't see it that way.  Nor did 10 % of=20
all Esperantists immediately jump ship to the latest "state-of-the-art"=20
creation.

But please notice that I am not saying this on the Novial list.  I have=20
explained to the list members that I am there to learn something about=20
Novial, and recommend simplification/regularity over "natural" quirkiness.
I do want to learn about Novial, and considering how hard Bruce argues in=20
favor of it, I'm astonished at how hard it is to get materials about the=20
language.  But all that will change, "come the revolution".  Next year=20
there will be 100 million speakers, and all international businesses will=20
be using it.  ;-)

First approximation: it wasn't enough better than the competition to take=20
root.  Possible subsidiary factor:  Jespersen made too many changes after=20
publication, falling into the Ido trap.

Sorry for the tirade, folks!  It just gets my goat when people blame=20
Esperanto for their own failures.  And all the squabbling about small=20
initial difficulties (according to some), without seeing the strengths=20
that make real _use_ possible in a reasonable time.  Not semi-recognition,=
=20
but the ability to really communicate verbally & par =E9crit, hopefully=20
about other topics than language alone.

Salutojn al ^ciuj! / Greetings to all!
Ken

My advice:  while you hone your own choice of conIAL, take the basic E-o=20
course, read some literature (it's cheap on the web), use the language to=20
correspond with someone from another culture.  Don't wait, do it now! =20
Click here: <http://www.iswest.net/~marko/esperanto/course/>
  *------------------------*----------------------------------------*
  | Ken CAVINESS           |    ESPERANTO      La lingvo internacia |
  | [log in to unmask]  |                                        |
  |                        |  A language for   More info:           |
  | Physics at Southern    |  cross-cultural   [log in to unmask]      |
  | Adventist University   |  communication    (800) 828-5944       |
  *------------------------*----------------------------------------*

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February 2001, Week 1
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December 2000, Week 5
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December 2000, Week 3
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December 1997, Week 5
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