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AUXLANG  April 1997, Week 3

AUXLANG April 1997, Week 3

Subject:

Re: The Delegation

From:

"Bruce R. Gilson" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 16 Apr 1997 06:17:37 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (134 lines)

Julian Pardoe LADS LDN X8164 <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>Jay Bowks wrote:

>> Look Julian, I'm happy for you if you finally agreed with
>> something Bruce said.  He's a cool guy and all and I appreciate
>> his experience on Interlinguistics.

>> I beg your pardon Pardoe if I somehow stepped on your toes, I have
>> not read many postings of yours and don't quite know where you're
>> comming from, I've been on Auxlang only for a few months.

>Well, if you've only been on AUXLANG a few months you will have
>missed the awful, interminable and childish row between BRG and EGE
>(Edmundo Grimley-Evans) that drove me (and, I'm sure, countless others)
>off the list.

Well, I think that anyone who has seen the exchange and had any trace of
open-mindedness would read it as proving that Edmundo had not the slightest
sense of logic. Many is the time I devoutly wanted to end the argument, but
because EGE made some statement that a naive conlanger might actually believe,
I needed to set the record straight.

>Bruce has also been known to make the kind of stupid 'Esperanto is
>not a real language' kind of remark that drives me crazy, and whilst
>I might expect that kind of empty comment from an outsider I feel that
>an aux-langer ought to know better.  (See my post on the optimality of
>Ido.)

Actually I never said that that Esperanto is not a real language. What I said
is that it is neither more nor less a real language than any other conlang
that managed to have 2 speakers. It can function as a means of communication
between any people who have learned it, but at present the number of E-ists
is still so small that I have no hope of making myself understood in it, unless
by luck I happen to find an Esperantist, and the chance of finding one is
negligible. (Outside of specifically conlang-oriented lists/newsgroups/
publications, I have encountered perhaps 2 in my 54-year life).

>He accuses Esperantists of treating Eo as a religion.  Well, don't
>ask me to defend Rik Dalton or people who write rubbish about neuro-
>logical pathways but equally don't accuse me or Jens or Ken or Don or
>countless other intelligent Esperantists of treating Eo as something
>holy.  If you're looking for blind, unreasoning zealotry you'd be better
>off considering Bruce's own antiEsperantism.

My attitude toward Esperanto is this. I see some NASTY flaws in it. The
attitude of Esperantists has universally been, "You can't change it. It
is 'netushebla.'" The only other text I've seen described in comparable
terms is the Bible.

Contrast this with the discussions we've had on the Novial list, or Phil Hunt's
recent throwing out of proposals for Eurolang changes to the readership.

>He states almost with pride that he knows next to nothing about
>Esperanto and seems to make it a point of honour that he won't and
>can't read postings in Esperanto.  You can understand why that produces
>a kind of "How dare he!" reaction and since when has ignorance been
>an asset in assessing something.  I like Eo because it has qualities that
>make it different from English; I treasure its flexibility.  How can
>someone who doesn't even know the language and certainly hasn't tried
>to use it presume to condemn it.

I have never said proudly that I know "next to nothing about Esperanto."
I know enough to understand how it works. With a dictionary, I could probably
read anything you post in that language.I just don't see how learning more
than a grammatical framework would help me in devising a better language,
to a greater degree than familiarizing myself with more of the other IALs
that have been put forth. I suspect that I know more about at least 5 or
6 IALs than Julian does. And I see breadth as more important than depth
here.

>And his use of language is sometimes a little suspect.  Esperanto has
>failed he says.  And Novial?  Oh no, Novial hasn't failed, it just
>hasn't yet succeeded!  People are probably sick of hearing about the
>kongresoj, the books, the magazines, the CDs (ever heard Kajto sing?)
>... but they happen, they exist and they are about the only chance
>any of us are going to get to really use an auxlang in practice.
>If that's failure, well OK but it's a pretty diverse and enjoyable
>kind of failure and offers me rather more than Novial's 'success'.

Well, the Novial list has gone from 2 to 14 members in slightly over 1 year:
that's 600% increase, and we haven't even finalized it! But the thing is,
E-o has been around 110 years, and a few tens of thousands use it. This to
me is failure. I can reach more people with some obscure Asian or Amerindian
language that most of you have never heard of than I can in E-o.

Novial has not been given a chance yet. We are starting anew now. I won't
be alive in 2107, but if Novial hasn't more speakers then than E-o has now,
it will be justified to call it a failure.

>Esperanto, according to Bruce, is a lost cause, unredeemable.
>Novial isn't -- but of course it needs a few tiny reformlets first.
>The trouble is that no one ever agrees on what reforms to implement.

We've reached A LOT of agreement. You have not seen the postings on the
list. Don't comment on what you don't know.

>In any case, EO is (for better or worse) a living language and no
>one has the power to reform it: the Akademio can try but it will be
>pissing in the wind.  (At least it has learnt this, unlike a certain
>other Academie.)

It is _because_ no one has the power to reform it that I feel it's a lost
cause.

Nobody insists we only drive 1887 automobiles or use 1887 versions of ANY
technology. Esperanto is a conscious creation, not like a natlang that has
grown up over centuries. If it is not opebn to change, it is dead.

>...and this leads us on to...

>> But when you start quoting me and then make mention of splittists,
>> hey, your barking up the wrong tree my dear pal...

>Maybe, but the history of the international language is littered
>with reforms and reforms of reforms and reforms or reforms or ...
>(Hence my reference to Idido, Ididido...)

>> I appreciate the changes Ido brought to Eo, I appreciate the hard
>> work of the folks putting up the info on Ido on the Web...

>So do I (that's why I appeal for a discussion on the principo di
>retroformado), but I'm still waiting to attend my first Internaciona
>Yunulara Kongreso.

Well, I don't know about a YOUTH Congress, but an international Ido
Congress is taking place in Holland this spring: see an earlier post I put up.

                                Bruce R. Gilson
                                email: [log in to unmask]
                                IRC: EZ-as-pi
                                WWW: http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3141
                                (for language stuff: add /langpage.html)

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