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AUXLANG Home

AUXLANG Home

AUXLANG  April 1997, Week 3

AUXLANG April 1997, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Enemies of Esperanto ?

From:

Ken Caviness <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 16 Apr 1997 10:31:04 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (144 lines)

At 11:25 PM 15.04.97 -0400, Jay Bowks wrote:

>I find it very difficult to understand who is saying what in this posting,
>I take it that Sam is here
>forwarding a message he received from the Web. /*??? is this right???*/

As he said in his posting.  He didn't give the URL, but I went looking,
and, yes, a lot of new material has recently been added to "Esperanto
Espan~a", webpages of a certain Jesuo de las Heras, an Esperantist in Spain.
For anyone who wants to take a look, the URL is:

   <http://mur.hnet.es/uphm/jesuo/espe.html>

Formerly there were a few connected pages in Esperanto and in Spanish, a
basic Esperanto course for Spanish speakers, addresses of some Esperanto
clubs in Spain, etc.  Now there is (among other things) a long list of
questions & answers about Esperanto, in (poor) English, of all things!  I
don't understand at all.  There is _plenty_ of material in English about
Esperanto online, but as yet, not so much in Spanish.  I consider the new
additions to the site to be argumentative and ill-advised.

>First, Novial is not a failure, as the latest attempt to modernize it
>shows, it is still on life support,

Perhaps we just better not call _any_ planned language a "failure".  No
speaks it or tries to learn it for decades, then someone gets hold of a
book and gets a circle of friends interested in it again.  Et voila!
Resurrection!  Better to say that Novial has not yet achieved much support.
But that may change!

>I think someone better let the poster of the message, this Eo poster child,
>know about the demise
>of Eo,

Now, now!  If according to your standards Novial hasn't failed, then
certainly Esperanto hasn't yet either!  Maybe no-one has recently
pointed out here that Esperanto has evolved, new words and new forms
have been added, and the "Fundamento" is only fixed as long as the
people actually using the language like it!  Simplest matter in the
world to change it, just get it voted at the yearly Universala Kongreso.
Of course, the difficulty is to get others to agree with _your_ particular
improvements.  Other "s^ang^emuloj" (change-tendency-people) likely have
a completely different agenda.  _But_ if your changes are markedly
superior, and if you use them in correspondence with others and can
induce others to do so, if you publish articles actually using the
modifications (appropriate explanations would probably be necessary),
there is absolutely no theoretical reason why you can't mold the language
in your own image.  Some people will not use the modifications, because
they (1) prefer the previous form, or (2) prefer the continuity of the
language as it stands.  But these people can be convinced of the excellency
of your reforms, or you can seek disciples among the Gentiles.  Let's not
keep bringing up the strawman of the "netus^ableco de la Fundamento" to
down Esperanto.

>that someone pulled the plug out of the wall on Eo when they wrote
>up the Manifesto
>prohibiting the "thought" of ruining the "perfect" IAL...

To which "Manifesto" are you referring?  In the Praga Manifesto a
contingent of Esperantists expressed their fatigue with the constant
battle to convince non-IAL-enthousiasts of the benefits of a planned
language (you've been there, right?) and their intention to use and
enjoy Esperanto for its own sake, right now.  I have to confess, I can
see their point.

And let me mention that it is my opinion that any planned language, whose
community allows often-repeated complete overhauls of the language, cannot
make headway against the opponents of IALs.  I only learned Esperanto
because of the scores of thousands of publications, books, magazines, etc.
that already exist!  If you change the language tomorrow, and the next day,
and the next, you'll lose much of your support.

>Who is this guy, anyway???

Don't know him, but see his name above.

>It figures this would be from Spain, por que no?  Ya se puede imaginar uno
>lo bien opinado que esta'
>esto...  Si una cosa se puede decir con certeza sobre los espan~oles es que
>los hay de extremos y
>nadie se pone a lo medio de la cosa, verdad?

Yo no conozco muchos espan~oles.  But basically this gentleman doesn't know
anything about other planned languages, he is used to arguing for Esperanto
& the IAL ideal against "the world".

>Please don't think of me as an opponent of Eo.  I believe there is no fight
>unless you want to fight.
>and I have given up fighting on this issue, but I do reserve the first
>amendment right to make a sly
>remark once in a while even if it burns me on return postings...

You bet!

>I don't believe Eo has failed in anything but its main goal.  To serve as a
>world auxiliary a language has
>to be widely used and recognized and accepted.  One hundred years have
>passed and still millions
>haven't got a clue as to what Eo is...

The point is, more people know Esperanto and know about Esperanto than
the other IALs, by several orders of magnitude.  By the definition of
"fina venko", the whole IAL movement has failed, harrumph! _not_succeeded_
yet.  It is my belief that any conlang that achieved extensive official
support could surpass Esperanto and become _the_ world-IAL.  Anything less
will leave Esperanto to slowly gain, while contenders "flash in the pan",
like Basic English.  In my view, Esperanto has already achieved a "critical
mass" of litterature and supporters.  This is what convinced me to learn
it.  After learning it I was interested in other conlangs, too.

>Interlingua never set out to solve
>the World's problem of
>Intercommunication, yet on INTERLNG list there's a community of
>non-linguists and language-professionals using it actively...   What would
>Gode say about that?  Bunch of Esperantists he'd say!

Most of Interlingua's supporters have disagreed with Gode's view of the
language, and do expect / have always worked for it to be used as an IAL.
It is great that there actually is a mailing list in Interlingua, now.

>Well buddy, if you really want to understand your neighbo(u)r, here I am,
>please don't answer me
>back in Eo, because (I'm very rusty on it) I gave it up decades ago and
>went on to better things...
>Yours truly,
>Jay B.

Heavens!  Don't ask him to write you back in *English*!

>*Sam, who is this guy???

La Esperantista movado is big enough that you'll meet all kinds.

Salutojn al ^ciuj! / Greetings to all!

Ken
  *------------------------*----------------------------------------*
  | Ken CAVINESS           |    ESPERANTO      La lingvo internacia |
  | [log in to unmask]  |                                        |
  |                        |  A language for   More info:           |
  | Physics at Southern    |  cross-cultural   [log in to unmask]      |
  | Adventist University   |  communication    (800) 828-5944       |
  *------------------------*----------------------------------------*

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January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
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December 2000, Week 3
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December 1998, Week 5
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December 1997, Week 5
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