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AUXLANG  April 1997, Week 3

AUXLANG April 1997, Week 3

Subject:

Re: The Delegation

From:

Jay Bowks <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 16 Apr 1997 19:21:02 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (254 lines)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[log in to unmask]
http://www.cheshire.net/~jjbowks/members.html
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/3377  AUXILINGUA
http://www.cheshire.net/~jjbowks/home.html
         VINIMUS VIDIMUS DOLAVIMUS
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
First of all, Julian, I don't have your name on record and I would
like to invite you to send some info on your Auxlang interests and
email/webpage if available, I'm compiling a list of contancts for
other Aux/Conlangers to use as a resource and would very much
appreciate your additions to the list.  Please look up the webpage
above quoted, or here below...

http://www.cheshire.net/~jjbowks/members.html

I hope you find it interesting.  I am two weeks into making updates
as I have been adding the support structure to the Auxlingua Project the
list is part of.  Let me assure you I want to represent
Eo as much as it is possible and of course other IALs as info is
available.  Your help would be appreciated...  As you may see, the
whole sight is still under much construction.

And now about your posting...
----------
> From: Julian Pardoe LADS LDN X8164 <[log in to unmask]>
> Jay Bowks wrote:
>
> > Look Julian, I'm happy for you if you finally agreed with
> > something Bruce said.  He's a cool guy and all and I appreciate
> > his experience on Interlinguistics.
>
> > I beg your pardon Pardoe if I somehow stepped on your toes, I have
> > not read many postings of yours and don't quite know where you're
> > comming from, I've been on Auxlang only for a few months.
>
> Well, if you've only been on AUXLANG a few months you will have
> missed the awful, interminable and childish row between BRG and EGE
> (Edmundo Grimley-Evans) that drove me (and, I'm sure, countless others)
> off the list.
>

I understand, Julian, the problem was ongoing when I joined and
Edmundo finally dismounted, I believe, though he promissed to
scan the archives from time to time just in case he is posthumorously being
spoken about... specially by Bruce, of course.

I don't mean to have to defend Bruce, I feel he does pretty well,
no moss grows on his keyboard I must agree...


> Bruce has also been known to make the kind of stupid 'Esperanto is
> not a real language' kind of remark that drives me crazy, and whilst

While Bruce is entitled to his opinion, I have often noticed that
it has been from the E-o-xtremist camp that the insults usually
fire out like solar flares...  Maybe I'm just senzitized to it
or somepin'.


> I might expect that kind of empty comment from an outsider I feel that
> an aux-langer ought to know better.  (See my post on the optimality of
> Ido.)
>
> He accuses Esperantists of treating Eo as a religion.  Well, don't
> ask me to defend Rik Dalton or people who write rubbish about neuro-

And I feel it is good to have Bruce and Rik on the list to give it
pizzaz, though it would be better to sit around and eat pizzas instead and
talk in friendship about our favorite IALs as if they
were toppings on the pie, no?  With a beer chaser perhaps?  Why
must some people make ugly faces at the mention of anchovies???


Why must some knuckle heads keep calling Novial 97, "renovial"?


A Spanish saying goes... "There's no accounting for taste said an
old woman as she sat there licking off the snotties slipping down
her upper lip".  I believe that was posted on Aux/Conlang list not
long ago...


> logical pathways but equally don't accuse me or Jens or Ken or Don or
> countless other intelligent Esperantists of treating Eo as something
> holy.  If you're looking for blind, unreasoning zealotry you'd be better
> off considering Bruce's own antiEsperantism.
>

I myself was a chest proud sporter of the green star in my young
teenage years, I have since had respect for the language but I
fell in love with Latino sine Flexione in High School and IALA Interlingua
in college.  And though I still remember some Eo, I
have indeed done some minor postings in it on this list, my IAL
of choice nowadays is Interlingua.


> He states almost with pride that he knows next to nothing about
> Esperanto and seems to make it a point of honour that he won't and
> can't read postings in Esperanto.  You can understand why that produces
> a kind of "How dare he!" reaction and since when has ignorance been
> an asset in assessing something.  I like Eo because it has qualities that
> make it different from English; I treasure its flexibility.  How can
> someone who doesn't even know the language and certainly hasn't tried
> to use it presume to condemn it.
>

And here, my dear Pardoe, I agree with you that I like Eos ease
of use as compared with English, after all, Eng. is my third
natlang and oh boy how I sound in the tapes my mom still has of
me when I was learning it... I sounded like a "Speedy Gonzales"
on valium... most humbling to hear it again so many decades later
--as a matter of fact I am visiting my folks next week.  And I
hope those tapes never resurface, my wife is Anglo-American...

But anyway, Bruce does like the logical/structural aspects in IAL's
and he might have to agree that Eo is a shining example of simple
and much imitated structures...

> And his use of language is sometimes a little suspect.  Esperanto has
> failed he says.  And Novial?  Oh no, Novial hasn't failed, it just
> hasn't yet succeeded!  People are probably sick of hearing about the
> kongresoj, the books, the magazines, the CDs (ever heard Kajto sing?)

All pretty interesting to me, more power to them, I say...


> ... but they happen, they exist and they are about the only chance
> any of us are going to get to really use an auxlang in practice.
> If that's failure, well OK but it's a pretty diverse and enjoyable
> kind of failure and offers me rather more than Novial's 'success'.
>
> Esperanto, according to Bruce, is a lost cause, unredeemable.
> Novial isn't -- but of course it needs a few tiny reformlets first.

I like the idea of interlinguists joining brains and linguistic
brawn to come to agreement on language issues, the Novial list
is an excellent example of linguistic work in progress.  Novial 97
though based on Jespersen's Novial of 28 includes further refine
ments and improvements J. himself suggested in later writings and
may include further ideas of other linguists which it is hoped, and
how can you go wrong on hope, :-)  that will help Novial become
more standardized and easier to use and of course more fluid and
workable.

> The trouble is that no one ever agrees on what reforms to implement.

Well, the reformists are agreeing and voting their hearts out even
as we type...   with the goal of achieving a workable IAL.  I do
hope Novial 97 has success, eventhough I put my best forward on
the INTERLNG list efforts and I try to encourage the learning of
Interlingua at the school where I teach languages.  Novial is indeed aimed
at solving World wide communication problems, while
Interlingua mainly was designed as a compilation of Standard
Average European language.

> In any case, EO is (for better or worse) a living language and no
> one has the power to reform it: the Akademio can try but it will be
> pissing in the wind.  (At least it has learnt this, unlike a certain
> other Academie.)
>
> ...and this leads us on to...
>
> > But when you start quoting me and then make mention of splittists,
> > hey, your barking up the wrong tree my dear pal...
>
> Maybe, but the history of the international language is littered
> with reforms and reforms of reforms and reforms or reforms or ...
> (Hence my reference to Idido, Ididido...)
>

English is being reformed all the time, I must admit that I work
in an environment where it is not at all uncommon to learn new
vocabulary, whether new terms or old terms used in a new way, monthly,
perhaps weekly and every day brings something new, by the
time this new-speak makes it to the mainstream new terms are already being
coined in our public high schools.


> > I appreciate the changes Ido brought to Eo, I appreciate the hard
> > work of the folks putting up the info on Ido on the Web...
>
> So do I (that's why I appeal for a discussion on the principo di
> retroformado), but I'm still waiting to attend my first Internaciona
> Yunulara Kongreso.
>
> > but I still feel that Ido could benefit from some improvements
>
> It's a slippery slope...
>
> > If you wish to discuss these
>
> Why not post them to the Ido list?  (If you're not on it send a message
> saying "subsribe idol" to [log in to unmask])
>
> > Essentially, Ido is wildflower growing on the dead stump of Esperanto,
> > let's water it a little...
>
> Essentially, Ido is some parasitic fungus, clinging to the strong
> oak of Esperanto: let's hack it off!
>

Ido as a flower is essentially how I perceive it.  Esperanto being
dead is essentialy how I treat it in my daily life, may it live
long and prosper for those wanting to fertilize it in their minds.
I look at Ido and like what I see, its a matter of taste, no?


> ...but that's not really my attitude.  Let a hundred flowers bloom.
> I will learn them all and speak them all.
>

Coolness... Most salubrious speech, Julian.


> And again, Esperanto dead?  Ido alive?  You must be using some
> definition of these terms that I haven't yet come across!
>
> Back to BRG.  I know I'm not really being fair to him (hence the "Sorry
> Bruce"): he has become an icon in my mind of a certain kind of anti-
> Esperantist who really annoys me.  (They post meaningless comments
> such as "Esperanto isn't a real language" and as you knock down their
> arguments one by one they keep on adding more and more criteria to
> thri definition -- e.g.
>     ....but a real language must have native speakers.
>     Esperanto has native speakers.
>     No, it doesn't.
>     Yes, it does: have a look at the 'denask-l' list.
>     Well, a real language must have native speakers and a national
>     territory.
>     Well, Yiddish never really had a national territory.  Is it not
>         a real language?
>     A real language must have native speakers and a national territory
>         or ....
> and so on and so on!)
>
> If there's an AUXLANG archive somewhere, why not read a few of his
postings.
> You might fond some goodies in the archives of sci.lang too.
>
> -- jP --



Thanks for your response to my message, I do hope that in the
spirit of cooperating in this list, we all try to keep working
with one another instead of tearing each other down.  There's
a lot of talent on this list!  8-)

Look at all the pretty flowers! Let's give praise to the gardeners!

amicably,
Jay B.

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June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
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September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
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July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
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July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
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June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
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April 2005, Week 5
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April 2005, Week 3
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April 2005, Week 1
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February 2005, Week 1
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January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
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September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
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August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
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July 2004, Week 5
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July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
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June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
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May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
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May 2003, Week 3
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May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
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June 2002, Week 5
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June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
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May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
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August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
July 2000, Week 4
July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
May 2000, Week 4
May 2000, Week 3
May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
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November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
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October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
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June 1999, Week 5
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June 1999, Week 1
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April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
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March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
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June 1998, Week 1
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March 1998, Week 5
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January 1998, Week 4
January 1998, Week 3
January 1998, Week 2
January 1998, Week 1
December 1997, Week 5
December 1997, Week 4
December 1997, Week 3
December 1997, Week 2
December 1997, Week 1
November 1997, Week 5
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November 1997, Week 3
November 1997, Week 2
November 1997, Week 1
October 1997, Week 5
October 1997, Week 4
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May 1997, Week 3
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May 1997, Week 1
April 1997, Week 5
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April 1997, Week 1
March 1997, Week 5
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March 1997, Week 3
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March 1997, Week 1
February 1997, Week 5
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February 1997, Week 1

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