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AUXLANG Home

AUXLANG Home

AUXLANG  April 1997, Week 5

AUXLANG April 1997, Week 5

Subject:

Re: Common ground/Universal Children

From:

pasi o a pärnänen <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 29 Apr 1997 20:50:58 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (194 lines)

Sometimes i think i talk too much, so please tell me if i do.

The discussion on a common ground for a gAL is very interesting
to me but i've been neglecting my work with bastard lately, and that
must change. So in the future i think i have to spend more time
with that and less time here. Don't misinterpret this as lack of
interest, it just means that my days are too short and i am sorry
for that.

But first...


Mark P. Line wrote in his latest posting:

> pasi o a p=E4rn=E4nen wrote:
> >
> > Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Mark P. Line:
> >
> > > pasi o a p=E4rn=E4nen wrote:
> > > >
> > > > To me the
> > > > universal grammar isn't a statistical average of languages, but a
> > > > collection of all grammatical rules used by languages on this plan=
et.

> > > > We already have that.
> > [...]
> >
> > > Does the global sum house have a global sum blueprint? Only in the
> > > sense of designating what is globally common to all houses -- the us=
ual
> > > term for this kind of thing is "universal". I don't see what this
> > > "global sum grammar" could be if not a collection of language
> > > universals (which, taken together, almost certainly do not describe =
a
> > > working language).
> >
> > The global sum house is not what is _common_ to all houses, but a
> > collection of how all houses are built on earth, igloos, tents and
> > all. The only thing common to houses on earth is that people live in
> > them (sometimes).

I must point out that actually building a single house with all the
features of all the houses of the world would make one unpractical
house, don't you think? But the 'sum house' is still useful as a
theory:

"the sum house book: how houses are built on this planet."
"check out now at http://house.sum.lib"  (fictive!)


> > And we do have a global sum language: This language is the result of
> > collecting all grammars and all words from all languages used on this
> > globe. ...but i think you don't like that idea, right?
>
> Right, because what you're calling a global sum "language" would not be
> a language (a verbal code that people can use for communication), but a
> motley collection of words and grammars.

If you had a thousand years to waste you would probably learn each
and every language on this planet and if you did that you would
notice that there were no sharp borders between languages. They would
all seem like dialects of one language to you, blending into each
other. Let us call that total human language 'Terranian' for now.
When you had a firm grasp of Terranian you could talk to anyone about
anything, and no word would be strange to you. And adapting to the
right dialect would be no trouble at all.

You would of course have to limit yourself to using words from your
huge vocabulary that the one you were speaking to could understand.
But then again, this is not a problem unique to thousand-year-olds.
We encounter this problem every day, even within our own languages.
There are words that some don't understand.

But calling human languages as a whole 'a motley collection of words
and grammars' is rude, IMHO.


> But maybe our disagreement is merely terminological. Let's find out.
> Take, just as an exercise in visualization, the following two very small
> model grammars:
>
>
> (1)
>
> S =3D VP NomNP AccNP | VP AccNP NomNP | NomNP VP AccNP | NomNP AccNP VP =
|
>     AccNP VP NomNP | AccNP NomNP VP
> VP =3D V (Adv)...
> NomNP =3D Noun NOM (Adj)...
> AccNP =3D Noun ACC (Adj)...
> (and whatever lexical items you like)
>
>
> (2)
>
> S =3D NP VP NP
> VP =3D (Adv)... V
> NP =3D (Adj)... Noun
> (and whatever lexical items you like)
>
>
> In what way does the "sum" of these two grammars (not to mention the
> "sum" of all grammars of all natlangs) describe anything remotely
> resembling a language?

To be perfectly honest i cannot understand more than a fraction of
the above codes. I feel like the first time i saw APL-code: Ashamed
for not understanding, and curious about what it means.  I get the
question (i think) as a whole, but the details... As i've said
before, i am here to learn, and i'll see if i can learn the language
somehow.

In the mean time... to people speaking both languages they
would not only resemble a language but infact be useful tools for
communication. In northern Sweden we have an example of that called
'tornedalsfinska' (Torne valley finnish) which is actually a strange
blend of swedish and finnish, but very useful to the people living
there.

BTW, my mother often falls into a mixed language of the same type,
but since we children know both languages the meaning of the
sentences aren't lost. Not all the time anyway... :)


[...]
> > > > Pride or laziness? You be the judge of that.
> > >
> > > Ignorance. (Something that may change much more readily than pride o=
r
> > > laziness, fortunately.)
> >
> > Ignorance tends to come from pride or laziness, IMHO, so you didn't
> > answer the question, you avoided it.
>
> Ignorance doesn't come from anywhere. It's knowledge that comes from
> somewhere.

Ignorance is  remaining on the same spot and knowledge is going
beyond that... Hmm... Yes, i agree.

> Ignorance is lack of knowledge. Everybody starts out knowing nothing,
> and nobody comes to know everything, so everybody is always ignorant
> about something. I try not to judge people as prideful or lazy because
> they're  ignorant about something I happen to believe myself not to be
> ignorant about. I do not, however, try to avoid judging people who
> actively (pridefully) or passively (lazily) resist the alleviation of
> their ignorance.

I cannot agree with this idea of a person being born as a tabula
rasa*. Every child has a mind of its own, a spirit that grows from
within. To me the idea of an empty child seems like giving birth to
a computer.

And i am not judging ignorant people either. I cannot judge anyone
for not knowing, but i always wonder why they don't want to know.

We are constructing something intended for them (and us of course).
The global auxiliary language could allow us all to be curious again
and also give us a possibility to find out more about whatever we are
interested in, whereever that might be. But the key to success is if
we will bother to use it, isn't it? If we want to know...


> But avoiding new knowledge wasn't at issue in the Emma anecdote, so
> ignorance is a sufficient explanation of Emma's behavior.

Well, i personally think its laziness. Predjudice (sp?) is easier to
use than knowledge because it requires less thinking. Because we
don't want to know. Sometimes because of pride and sometimes because
we are just to lazy to bother with it. I think that old Emma has the
right to be lazy at her age, though...


> Does this have anything at all to do with auxlangs?

In a word: yes.
(but you seem to be of another opinion and i don't understand why.)


sincerely

pasi.

        being human isn't something to learn...

- - -

*
tabula rasa=3Dclean slate or unwritten page.


Pasi P=E4rn=E4nen -*- [log in to unmask] -*- webpage soon

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January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
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August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
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July 2003, Week 3
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June 2003, Week 5
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June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
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May 2003, Week 3
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May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
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July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
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June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
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April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
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March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 1
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February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
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December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
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August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
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July 2000, Week 3
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June 2000, Week 3
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June 2000, Week 1
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May 2000, Week 4
May 2000, Week 3
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April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 3
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April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
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March 2000, Week 1
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February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
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December 1999, Week 5
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December 1999, Week 3
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April 1999, Week 3
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April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
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January 1999, Week 3
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January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
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June 1998, Week 3
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June 1998, Week 1
May 1998, Week 5
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May 1998, Week 3
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May 1998, Week 1
April 1998, Week 5
April 1998, Week 4
April 1998, Week 3
April 1998, Week 2
April 1998, Week 1
March 1998, Week 5
March 1998, Week 4
March 1998, Week 3
March 1998, Week 2
March 1998, Week 1
February 1998, Week 5
February 1998, Week 4
February 1998, Week 3
February 1998, Week 2
February 1998, Week 1
January 1998, Week 5
January 1998, Week 4
January 1998, Week 3
January 1998, Week 2
January 1998, Week 1
December 1997, Week 5
December 1997, Week 4
December 1997, Week 3
December 1997, Week 2
December 1997, Week 1
November 1997, Week 5
November 1997, Week 4
November 1997, Week 3
November 1997, Week 2
November 1997, Week 1
October 1997, Week 5
October 1997, Week 4
October 1997, Week 3
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October 1997, Week 1
September 1997, Week 5
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September 1997, Week 1
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July 1997, Week 1
June 1997, Week 5
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June 1997, Week 1
May 1997, Week 5
May 1997, Week 4
May 1997, Week 3
May 1997, Week 2
May 1997, Week 1
April 1997, Week 5
April 1997, Week 4
April 1997, Week 3
April 1997, Week 2
April 1997, Week 1
March 1997, Week 5
March 1997, Week 4
March 1997, Week 3
March 1997, Week 2
March 1997, Week 1
February 1997, Week 5
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February 1997, Week 3
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February 1997, Week 1

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