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AUXLANG Home

AUXLANG Home

AUXLANG  April 1997, Week 5

AUXLANG April 1997, Week 5

Subject:

Re: Common ground/Universal Children

From:

"Mark P. Line" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 29 Apr 1997 18:42:01 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (212 lines)

pasi o a p=E4rn=E4nen wrote:
>=20
> I must point out that actually building a single house with all the
> features of all the houses of the world would make one unpractical
> house, don't you think? But the 'sum house' is still useful as a
> theory:
>=20
> "the sum house book: how houses are built on this planet."
> "check out now at http://house.sum.lib"  (fictive!)

Yes. But you weren't talking only about "sum house" ("sum language"),
you were also talking about "sum blueprint" ("sum grammar"). My
objections were directed towards the concept of "sum grammar" (and
analogously "sum blueprint", because no object can reasonably be called
a grammar if it does not describe a language. I don't see what kind of
object you envision the "sum grammar" as being, nor how it might in any
way describe a language.

Also, I don't see how the object you call "sum language" could be
anything like what we normally refer to as a language.


> > > And we do have a global sum language: This language is the result o=
f
> > > collecting all grammars and all words from all languages used on th=
is
> > > globe. ...but i think you don't like that idea, right?
> >
> > Right, because what you're calling a global sum "language" would not =
be
> > a language (a verbal code that people can use for communication), but=
 a
> > motley collection of words and grammars.
>=20
> If you had a thousand years to waste you would probably learn each
> and every language on this planet and if you did that you would
> notice that there were no sharp borders between languages.

In what way are there no sharp borders between Sierra Nahuatl and Wu
Chinese?


> They would
> all seem like dialects of one language to you,

Not to me. Maybe only to you?

I'm fluent in two dialects each of German and English. Although there is
no sharp border between the two German dialects or the two English
dialects, there is no way I can say that the German continuum and the
English continuum seem like dialects of one language to me.

I wouldn't expect that to change if I were fluent in 6,500 other
languages. What makes you think it would?


> But calling human languages as a whole 'a motley collection of words
> and grammars' is rude, IMHO.

1. I said that your concept of the "sum" language represents only a
motley collection of words and grammars, as opposed to representing
anything remotely resembling a language.

2. Why rude? Rude to whom?


> > But maybe our disagreement is merely terminological. Let's find out.
> > Take, just as an exercise in visualization, the following two very
> > small
> > model grammars:

> > [snip]

> > In what way does the "sum" of these two grammars (not to mention the
> > "sum" of all grammars of all natlangs) describe anything remotely
> > resembling a language?
>=20
> In the mean time... to people speaking both languages they
> would not only resemble a language but infact be useful tools for
> communication.

The "sum" of German and English does not resemble a language to me. It
resembles two languages. It _is_ two languages.

How could it be any different? I assume that you feel as though the
"sum" of the languages you're fluent in are "as one language". But isn't
it rather unscientific to draw serious conclusions from your feelings
without some kind of corroboration? It's that corroboration that I've
been asking you to provide (either existing corroboration, or ways you
think that corroboration might be forthcoming).


> In northern Sweden we have an example of that called
> 'tornedalsfinska' (Torne valley finnish) which is actually a strange
> blend of swedish and finnish, but very useful to the people living
> there.

So you have (at least) three identifiable codes (Swedish, Finnish and
Tornedalsfinska) which exhibit complex contact phenomena. So what?


> BTW, my mother often falls into a mixed language of the same type,
> but since we children know both languages the meaning of the
> sentences aren't lost. Not all the time anyway... :)

Yes, that's another typical contact phenomenon.

So what? Not all linguistic codes are in contact. It will never be the
case (barring catastrophic reduction in linguistic diversity) that all
linguistic codes are in contact.

So I fail to see where you're heading with these observations of codes
which do happen to be in contact.


> > Ignorance is lack of knowledge. Everybody starts out knowing nothing,
> > and nobody comes to know everything, so everybody is always ignorant
> > about something. I try not to judge people as prideful or lazy becaus=
e
> > they're  ignorant about something I happen to believe myself not to b=
e
> > ignorant about. I do not, however, try to avoid judging people who
> > actively (pridefully) or passively (lazily) resist the alleviation of
> > their ignorance.
>=20
> I cannot agree with this idea of a person being born as a tabula
> rasa*. Every child has a mind of its own, a spirit that grows from
> within. To me the idea of an empty child seems like giving birth to
> a computer.

I didn't say that a person is born as a tabula rasa, I said that a
person starts out knowing nothing. A person starts out as a completely
dependent part of her mother: a fertilized egg, a single cell. There is
nothing that cell can be said to "know" without using a drastically
divergent meaning of "know".

Although you are free to formulate whatever metaphysical postulates you
like to the contrary, a good case can be made that (human) knowledge is
dependent on the existence of a (human) central nervous system. A
fertilized human egg does not have a central (or any other kind of)
nervous system.

You can formulate metaphysical postulates that go beyond what we have
evidence for, of course. You can say that all knowledge is inspired by
God and has nothing to do with the CNS. You can say that all knowledge
exists in the mind of some non-material "homunculus" that somehow lives
in a separate reality along with our material selves. You could even go
on to postulate some third reality in which the (otherwise inexplicable)
mind of that homunculus exists, and so on.

But if you choose to stipulate such postulates, then you automatically
make yourself unable to communicate cogently with those who choose not
to so stipulate (effective communication is dependent on commitment to
compatible ontologies).

I guess I'm trying to find a clear way to tell you that I think it's
perfectly alright if you wish to set up postulates you believe in but
for which there is no evidence, but that doing so will prevent you and
me from communicating about the way we think things are (because our
ontologies would be incompatible).


> And i am not judging ignorant people either. I cannot judge anyone
> for not knowing, but i always wonder why they don't want to know.

I think you're _presupposing_ that a person ignorant of X does not want
to know about X.

For everything that you're ignorant about, is it the case that you want
to know about it?

That's certainly not the case with me. There are all kinds of things I'm
ignorant of but which I have no interest in knowing about. Aren't you
assuming that other people's choices (what to want to know, and what
not) should be the same as yours?


> The global auxiliary language could allow us all to be curious again
> and also give us a possibility to find out more about whatever we are
> interested in, whereever that might be. But the key to success is if
> we will bother to use it, isn't it? If we want to know...

You want to build a global auxlang. You want your auxlang to be accepted
by everybody. For that, you need to have everybody come to "want to
know" in a way that is compatible with the way _you_ "want to know".

I neither subscribe to such a course of action, nor do I predict that it
would ever be successful.


> > But avoiding new knowledge wasn't at issue in the Emma anecdote, so
> > ignorance is a sufficient explanation of Emma's behavior.
>=20
> Well, i personally think its laziness. Predjudice (sp?) is easier to
> use than knowledge because it requires less thinking.

How do you distinguish between "prejudice" and "knowledge"?


> > Does this have anything at all to do with auxlangs?
>=20
> In a word: yes.
> (but you seem to be of another opinion and i don't understand why.)

Conceivably, you could explain what you think that connection is, then
we'd both know.


-- Mark

(Mark P. Line  --  Bellevue, Washington  --  <[log in to unmask]>)

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