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AUXLANG  April 1997, Week 5

AUXLANG April 1997, Week 5

Subject:

Re: Common ground/Universal Children

From:

pasi o a pärnänen <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 28 Apr 1997 21:15:05 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (237 lines)

Dear Mark.

I find your comments interesting, and i now intend to comment them...


> Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Mark Vines:
> It's been suggested by Pasi Paernaenen
> <[log in to unmask]> that a global
> auxlang should conform as closely as possible to
> universal norms of human grammar, & also to the
> norms of child language acquisition & use.
>
> I have some comments on these suggestions.

I assumed that it was clear by now that what i meant (and still mean)
was that the only truly common grammar was the tiny first
part of language acquisition of a child. Call it the baby-phase, if
you want.


> On universal grammar:
>
> Theories on the universal norms of human grammar
> are numerous.  Many theories have not yet been
> developed to the point of making unique, testable
> predictions.  Among those which do make predictions,
> none have been adequately tested against natlang
> data.  (For most human languages, the requisite data
> have not yet been collected or, if collected, have
> not yet been peer-reviewed or, if reviewed, have not
> yet been published or, if published, have not yet
> been thoroughly correlated with relevant data from
> other publications.)
>
> Auxlang design might benefit from a study of these
> theories.  But no one knows which of them, if any,
> is correct.  For any given theory, there's a risk
> that it will eventually be disconfirmed by the data.

The universal grammar is a great idea. I cannot say that i will have
any use for it when i am collecting bastard, but still... To me the
universal grammar isn't a statistical average of languages, but a
collection of all grammatical rules used by languages on this planet.

We already have that. The universal grammar is a part of our
universal language, of which we all just use subsets.
Test this in any way you want to but don't ignore the answers!

I mean... take the idea of proving god as a parallell:
If i told you that there not only was a god but that this god was
everything, you would probably ask me for proof of that. So far so
good. But if i told you that everything that you saw was parts of
that one god and that everything was proof of that then you would
shake your head and think i must be an idiot, wouldn't you?

But we don't have to complicate things. Haven't you noticed that
adults "talk" the same way to babies all over the world? Do they know
something that we language scholars don't?

The problem here is not uncertainty. Theory at high levels have the
same problem everywhere: Prestige rules out the simple explanations.
I am right and you are wrong. Period. Anyone that might imply that
we both could be right gets a fist in his or her face. Because Occams
razor just doesn't work on experts.

We already have a global sum language with a global sum grammar, but
i think that language is a bit hard to learn. But feel free to learn
another dialect. Mia has a point there, learning "a new language" is
learning more of the global sum language. Pick any language! You
can't pick the wrong one...


> On children & language:
>
> Language learning is amazingly easy for children in
> the right age range.  This may be a good reason _not_
> to model an auxlang on the acquisition & use of
> language by children:  children can too easily
> overcome difficulties which would frustrate or defeat
> many adults.

Children have to be because we are so proud of being lazy. :)
I'll explain that in a second but i must warn you:
this calls for a joke...

Old Emma, 86, had never heard hebrew spoken in all her life. Now she
sat down in her favourite chair at home listening to the new minister
of the congruation, reading from the Bible in that language.
She sat smiling all through the reading, and that made the young
priest happy, so he read her some more.
When he finished he asked the old lady what she thought of it.
Well, said little old Emma, the minister has a beautiful and strong
voice, but if english was good for Jesus and John then it's good
enough for me...

Pride or laziness? You be the judge of that.


> I've read several studies on children & language.
> Some of their findings are controversial.  Here's a
> selection, possibly obsolete or unreliable, which
> might have implications for auxlang design:
>
> 1
>
> Children instinctively expect each morpheme to be
> one syllable in length, with an early preference for
> the CV shape.  At least two conlang designs (Monling
> & guaspi) have employed the 1 morpheme = 1 syllable
> equation; neither language has yet succeeded in
> attracting a user population.

Mama Baba Gugu Namnam..? BTW, bastard uses cvcv.


> 2
>
> Children instinctively assume that each word is a
> unique name for a distinct whole object.  This is
> called the Whole Object Assumption.  Children do not
> drop this assumption until they encounter contrary
> evidence, but that often comes early in the process
> of L1 acquisition.

They start up with one undivided whole, and then as they divide they
need words for the parts IMHO.


> 3
>
> Once they've dropped the Whole Object Assumption,
> children instinctively expect "classifiers" or
> "pivot particles" to distinguish between various
> noun classes.  They expect one pivot to mark all
> nouns that refer to countable whole objects, another
> to mark all mass nouns, another to mark all nouns
> that refer to countable parts of objects, ktp.  When
> children learn an L1 which does not provide these
> pivot words, they systematically mistake other words
> for the pivots they expect.  Perhaps this means that
> the ideal auxlang should include pivot particles for
> classifying nouns.

...and they need names for the parts....


> Situation:
>   A mother shows her son a cup of juice during L1
>   acquisition.
>
> Pivot particles:
>   W = countable whole object
>   P = countable part of object
>   M = mass noun
>
> Example 1.  Mother:
>   "This is W cup."
>   "Do you want W cup?"
>
>   The W particle tells the child that the noun
>   "cup" refers to a whole object.
>
> Example 2.  Mother:
>   "This is P handle."
>   "Can you hold W cup by P handle?"
>
>   The P particle tells the child that the noun
>   "handle" refers to a part of an object.
>
> Example 3.  Mother:
>   "This is M juice."
>   "Would you like M juice?"
>
>   The M particle tells the child that the noun
>   "juice" refers to a mass, not a countable object.
>
> Note that, in all three examples, the nonverbal cues
> provided by the mother are almost identical:  she
> shows her son a cup of juice.  Pivot particles help
> the child to "achieve reference" for each of the
> nouns that his mother uses, despite the fact that
> her nonverbal cues may be ambiguous.

Lets keep it as whole as possible. Don't divide for the sake of
division.


> 4
>
> Apparently no one knows whether children expect
> pivot particles for words other than nouns.  If so,
> I'd guess the copula might be regarded as a pivot
> particle of this type.  Perhaps this means that
> the ideal auxlang should include pivot particles
> for classifying verbs, predicate adjectives, ktp.
>
> 5
>
> When a sentence employs a certain word, & another
> sentence is identical except for the use of an
> exact synonym in the same spot, children do not
> assume that the two sentences have the same truth
> value.  In fact, for sentence pairs of this type,
> children frequently assert opposing truth values.
>
> Maybe, even after they've dropped the Whole Object
> Assumption, children instinctively assume that words
> have unique meanings & are not interchangeable.
> Does this mean that the ideal auxlang should be
> designed so that there are no true synonyms in its
> lexicon?  You tell me.

As i said earlier... Keep devisions to a minimum. Make the language
have as few fragments as possible. True synonyms are two words
meaning the same thing, and whats the use of that? But if they differ
the slightest then they are not synonyms any more, and BANG useful
again. (Some will still think of them as synonyms, though.)


> Again, some of these findings may be obsolete or
> unreliable.  If you have better information, I hope
> you'll enlighten us here on the list.

I cannot tell you anything that you don't already know and i cannot
bring you anything that you don't already have.

You're teaching me!


sincerely

Pasi.



Pasi Paernaenen -*- [log in to unmask] -*- webpage soon

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