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AUXLANG  September 1997, Week 5

AUXLANG September 1997, Week 5

Subject:

Re: Classical Yiklamu

From:

Ken Caviness <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 28 Sep 1997 22:16:26 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (173 lines)

In response to my question:

>> Mark, you're being very modest here, but would you describe
>> the extent of your knowledge of these languages?

Mark P. Line wrote:

>I've studied Malay off and on since I was in high-school. I've exposed
>myself to everything I can get my hands on in terms of linguistic
>description. If I discovered anything new (to me) about Malay
>morphosyntax, it would probably be publishable. I don't consider myself
>fluent in the language because I don't use it often enough to retain
>vocabulary permanently (I guess my brain is playing a zero-sum game with
>all the other languages I've been exposed to).

>What I said about Malay above goes for Tok Pisin and Quechua also, with
>the following provisos:
>
>(a) I didn't start looking at Quechua till I was an undergraduate, and
>didn't look at it again until quite recently; although I'd worked on
>other English-based creoles, I didn't start looking at Tok Pisin/Bislama
>until a few years ago;
>
>(b) there's much less to be had in the way of linguistic description for
>Tok Pisin/Bislama, so much of the description I'm working from is my
>own, and is publishable (and will presumably be published).

Thank you.  I fully expected that you had made a significant study of=20
the languages mentioned, but I asked so as not to be guilty of jumping=20
to conclusions.

>Note, however, that my knowledge of these languages is not really at
>issue here. James made the claim that natlangs are always more
>complicated than they need to be, which makes the (stupidly untenable)
>implication that he is knowledgeable of all natlangs. I merely stated
>that I couldn't see how this was so in these three languages. If you or
>James _can_ see how this is so in even one of these languages, I'd
>welcome your comments.
>
>I note that you're not asking James how it is that he knows so much
>about natlangs that he was able to make such a claim, even if it was
>intended as hyperbole. After retracting it, he still left us with the
>challenge to show him a natlang that is no more complicated than Ido --
>that implies that he's still rather confident that no natlang can ever
>be that simple. But, strangely, you inquire about my credentials
>concerning the languages I mentioned -- you don't inquire about James'
>credentials concerning all natlangs everywhere.

I interpreted James' comments as hyperbole from the beginning.  As you=20
rightly remark, no one person is in a position to rule on all "natural"=20
languages everywhere.

>If, however, your argument is more along the lines of "Well, Mark, you
>probably don't know everything about these languages, so I hereby
>surmise that there are unnecessary complications in them that you just
>don't know about. QED."=20

No, such was not my intention.  As I explained, I've heard conflicting=20
reports about Indonesian, for instance.

My next question is this:  you have indicated that certain natlangs=20
(listed above) are relatively uncomplicated, even compared to some=20
constructed languages.  Will you please compare the level of knowledge=20
you have about these unplanned languages with your knowledge about=20
constructed languages (whichever ones you have studied)?

*I* have not studied the natlangs you mention, you have.  But I have=20
studied about a dozen ethnic languages from a variety of linguistic=20
families, and a half-dozen conlangs, and based on this admittedly=20
limited and statistically invalid sample I formed the opinion that=20
natlangs tend to be needlessly complicated in one area or another.

I guess my point is this:  I've heard people who know nothing about=20
Malay or Esperanto claim that Malay is "just as easy to learn" as=20
Esperanto.  So may I ask, which conlangs have you studied, and to=20
what degree compared to the natlangs you mention?  You see, I do=20
remain surprised when you say that Malay, etc., are as simple as=20
Ido or Esperanto, or ....  Yet if I understand you correctly, I=20
think this is what you have said.

>If that's your argument, then that means (as I
>mentioned to James) that you must have a theoretical argument by which
>you have concluded that natlangs (including Malay, Quechua and Tok
>Pisin) must necessarily be more complicated than they need to be.

As to a theoretical argument, I have not yet read a message where=20
James shares his thoughts, but here's a sketchy idea that I have had=20
in mind for some time:  It seemed to me that ALL human endeavor=20
contains "needless complexity".  If a conlang has complications, one=20
might conceivably simplify it, giving a simpler conlang.  But if a=20
natlang is simplified "too much" it might have to be considered to=20
be a conlang also (at least by some criteria).

>Is it your wish to pursue James' claim that natlangs are always much
>more complicated than they need to be?

But I notice your careful phrasing in both paragraphs above:  "more=20
complicated than they need to be".  It may be impossible to define this=20
concept.  What one person regards as needless complication another=20
might claim as necessary redundancy.  I'm thinking for example of=20
conjugating a verb for person and number and/or using a subject.  Many=20
people feel that the different conjugation for English verbs in 3rd=20
person singular is a needless complication:  I go, you go, he go, ...
Other languages drop the subject pronouns and rely on the verb to=20
indicate information about the subject, some languages have both.  I=20
don't care about any of these things, but I like all verbs to be=20
treated in the same way, so I can learn the pattern, and not have to=20
deviate from it.

Forgive this rather limited example, which indeed doesn't even relate=20
to many languages.

>> According to my friends across the street who spent a
>> decade in Indonesia and learned and used the language,
>> there are levels of politeness in the language to the
>> extent that one has to learn different words for the same
>> concept for use when speaking with different people.  I'm
>> unsure how great an effect this is, but I must admit that
>> this seems to me to be a significant complication to
>> would-be learners.
>
>1. In what way would that make the language much more complicated than
>it needs to be?

I cannot define your "more complicated than it needs to be".  Perhaps=20
all languages are exactly as complicated *as*they*need*to*be*, or=20
rather, exactly as complicated as their speakers need them to be.  But=20
could we agree that a language with separate "formal" and "informal"=20
vocabularies would take longer to learn (as an L2) than a language=20
having one vocabulary with an extra "honorific" word to be placed in=20
a formal sentence, or perhaps an "unhonorific" for informal sentences?

>2. There's no such thing as "different words for the same concept"
>except in the case of True Synonyms (tm), mythical creatures I've never
>encountered in any natlang. The words 'black' and 'white' are not
>"different words for the same concept" but with a complicated and
>hard-to-learn nuance relating to the way light is reflected. In the same
>way, politeness registers in Indonesian do not involve "different words
>for the same concept" but with a complicated and hard-to-learn nuance
>relating to the demographics of speaker and hearer. In both of these
>cases, we're just dealing with "different words for different concepts",
>period -- even though the concepts may be semantically related.

You are quite right, of course. =20

>3. Again, the issue here was not how different a language happens to be
>from English,=20

Certainly not!  Perish the thought.

>but rather the degree to which the language is much more
>complicated than it needs to be.

I agree.  But in the real world no IAL will be able to satisfy all the=20
needs of all the speakers of all the languages of the world.  Concepts=20
that some people view as distinct have only one word in other languages. =20
This problem exists no matter what IAL is chosen.

However, since the human mind works well with patterns, a "less-complicated"=
=20
language should have clearly visible patterns and few pattern-breaking=20
exceptions.  (IMO!) =20

Bonan tagon al vi!

Ken

  *-----------------------------------------------------------------*
  | Ken CAVINESS           Physics at Southern Adventist University |
  | [log in to unmask]             ESPERANTO =3D Lingvo internacia |
  | http://southern.edu/~caviness/     E-o/English/Fran=E7ais/Deutsch |
  *-----------------------------------------------------------------*

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