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AUXLANG  October 1997, Week 2

AUXLANG October 1997, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Reductive Grammar

From:

Don Blaheta <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 11 Oct 1997 19:29:26 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (113 lines)

Quoth Paul Dennett:
> Don Blaheta wrote:
> > Honestly, I'd say that "in the garden" _should_ be connected to the VP
> > (or, I suppose, to the object; but the point is, it's not just 'floating
> > around in the sentence', it's modifying one or the other).
>=20
> But which? I think "en gxarden" is modifying the sentence=20
>=20
> "Bai hund nigr du cxas rapid na mult kat blank."
>=20
> I think John Arley Burns was saying that the verb is the head of the sent=
ence. In=20
> a sense, then, "Bai hund nigr", "na mult kat blank", "en gxarden" and eve=
n "rapid"=20
> (!) all modify the verb "du cxas". It's just the order of modifiers we'r=
e=20
> discussing.

Hmm... that's a slightly different model for sentence-parsing, but yes,
you could look at it that way. In _that_ case, I _still_ say that it
would be easier to parse if you required modifiers other than "bai" and
"na" to appear within the "du" phrase.

> > Yes, and it's at least sometimes a problem in all of them. I wouldn't
> > reject a language for _not_ fixing it, but when there is such a
> > blatantly obvious way of fixing it within your framework, why not use
> > that?
>=20
> Only really because it places an extra restriction on the flexibility of =
word=20
> order for little significant benefit. =20

I would say there is definitely a significant benifit, especially in the
case of one-word modifiers but also in the case of phrasal modifiers.

> > Are you saying that tense and
> > aspect adverbs _should_ be distant from the verb? Why?
>=20
> Not that they *should* be distant from the verb, only that they need
> not be next to the verb. There was a debate going on a day or two ago
> about polysynthesis in which Glosa was mentioned...
>=20
> [glosa ref]
>=20
> These tense markers are the "little auxiliary markers" I was talking
> about. Adverbial or prepositional phrases are more or less
> independent of the verb. They have greater freedom to 'float around'
> the sentence and are less likely to be treated as pseudo-flexions as
> JC and POB suggest is happening in Glosa.

Welllll... I really think that especially tense markers but also any
adverb should appear close to the verb in such a language as we are
discussing.

> > On the other hand, there is
> > a difficulty in importing words from the tone languages; since we do not
> > include tones in our conials, to include such a word would, to a native
> > speaker of the source lang, be very much a volap=FCkisation of that wor=
d.
>=20
> I agree, this is a problem, but hopefully not a very significant one.
> Arabic contains some sounds which probably won't be carried over into
> an IAL. How do we represent these? Inevitably there is going to be a
> certain amount of carving up of non-IE roots, but I see no reason why
> this should be anything like as drastic as in Volapuk, or even
> Esperanto.=20

Arabic is not _quite_ so bad since at least some of their words will
conform to our phonology. But in the tone languages, tone is absolutely
vital to the meaning of a word. Since tone holds no such meaning in our
phonology, _any_ word borrowed from a tone language will be volap=FCkized.

> > Check out Leo Moser's "Bahasan" project for a more interesting way to
> > gather a truly international vocabulary (although until I see a more
> > complete lexicon for it, I still hold reservations on the more common
> > words).
>=20
> Is there a web page for Bahasan? I keep hearing mention of it.

Not yet, that I know of. Leo?

> > 1 tigers tigers in general: "Tigers have stripes"
> > 2 the tiger the specific tiger previously referred to
> > 3 the tigers the specific tigers previously referred to
> > 4 the tiger archetypal tiger: "The tiger is not a gregarious mammal"
> > 5 a tiger some specific but previously unmentioned tiger
> > 6 a tiger any old tiger, but just one, and not in general
> > 7 some tigers multiple tigers, not in general or prev. ref. to
> > 8 # tigers # tigers, not previously referred to
> > 9 this/that t. one specific tiger, not previously referred to
> > 0 this/that t. one specific tiger, prev. ref. to, w/ two t.s compared
> > 1 th(e/o)se t.s several specific tigers, not prev. ref. to
> > 2 th(e/o)se t.s several specific tigers, prev. ref. to, w/2 grps comp.

Ok, after some more thought, I think you can run the whole paradigm
above with just: an adverb "generally" for 1 and 4, a "plural" morpheme
only to be used if necessary, and a demonstrative sequence for 9-12.
5 and 6 really _are_ the same thing, but 6 is used in future/conditional
constructions, while 5 is used in present/past. And det vs. indet
doesn't need to be represented; in conversation, if you _could_ refer to
"the tiger", then any new tiger wouldn't be just "a tiger" but "another
tiger".

Oh well. Don't mind me.

--=20
-=3D-=3D-=3D-Don [log in to unmask]@=
aol.com-=3D-=3D-=3D-
        "What are you doing?"
        "Examining the world's major religions. I'm looking for something
that's light on morals, has lots of holidays, and with a short
initiation period."

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