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AUXLANG Home

AUXLANG  October 1997, Week 2

AUXLANG October 1997, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Reductive Grammar

From:

Paul Dennett <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 10 Oct 1997 22:54:52 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (202 lines)

Don Blaheta wrote:

>   I think adverbs of time (incl. adverbial phrases of time)
> apply towards the verb.  More directly, I prefer a model that says
> that A) all prepositional phrases modify one specific thing, thus they
> are all adverbial or adjectival, and B) all adverbs modify either a
> verb or an adjective, they don't modify the sentence at large; thus
> we have a fantastically simple way of modeling and grouping the
> sentence: each "major sentence segment" is introduced with a particle
> ("bai", "du", etc.), followed by the head of that segment, followed by
> things which modify that head.  Simple.
>=20

I dare say that would work too, but see below.
  =20
> >          'Bai hund nigr du cxas rapid na mult kat blank en gxarden'.
>=20
> Honestly, I'd say that "in the garden" _should_ be connected to the VP
> (or, I suppose, to the object; but the point is, it's not just 'floatin=
g
> around in the sentence', it's modifying one or the other).
>=20

But which? I think "en gxarden" is modifying the sentence=20

        "Bai hund nigr du cxas rapid na mult kat blank."

I think John Arley Burns was saying that the verb is the head of the sent=
ence.  In=20
a sense, then, "Bai hund nigr", "na mult kat blank", "en gxarden" and eve=
n "rapid"=20
(!) all modify the verb "du cxas".  It's just the order of modifiers we'r=
e=20
discussing.

> > > [ambiguity of modifier PPs]
> > I see what you mean, but that's hardly a fatal flaw. Doesn't this amb=
iguity
> > exist in other languages, too?
>=20
> Yes, and it's at least sometimes a problem in all of them.  I wouldn't
> reject a language for _not_ fixing it, but when there is such a
> blatantly obvious way of fixing it within your framework, why not use
> that?

Only really because it places an extra restriction on the flexibility of =
word=20
order for little significant benefit.  =20

> Are you saying that tense and
> aspect adverbs _should_ be distant from the verb?  Why?

Not that they *should* be distant from the verb, only that they need not =
be next=20
to the verb.  There was a debate going on a day or two ago about polysynt=
hesis in=20
which Glosa was mentioned...

John Cowan (Wed 8 Oct) wrote (on CONLANG):
>  In Gaskell-Glosa (the Robin Gaskell dialect
> of the auxlang Glosa), the tense morphemes are independent
> phonological words (probably),

Note the "probably"...

> but they are mandatory: every
> sentence contains one, including the sentences explaining that
> tense morphemes are optional!

Here comes the most important point ...

> There is at least a case to be made that Gaskell-Glosa tense morphemes
> are inflectional prefixes on the verb.

and Paul O. Bartlett replied (same date)...

>   I tend to agree with you about Gaskell-Glosa and even, to some
> extent, Aashby&Clark-Glosa (Ashby&Clark being the principals of Glosa).
> Even the latter, in some of their writings, tend to mark tense and
> number either when it is already marked in some other or when it is
> irrelevant. =20

These tense markers are the "little auxiliary markers" I was talking abou=
t. =20
Adverbial or prepositional phrases are more or less independent of the ve=
rb.  They=20
have greater freedom to 'float around' the sentence and are less likely t=
o be=20
treated as pseudo-flexions as JC and POB suggest is happening in Glosa.

>  On the other hand, there is
> a difficulty in importing words from the tone languages; since we do no=
t
> include tones in our conials, to include such a word would, to a native
> speaker of the source lang, be very much a volap=FCkisation of that wor=
d.

I agree, this is a problem, but hopefully not a very significant one.  Ar=
abic=20
contains some sounds which probably won't be carried over into an IAL.  H=
ow do we=20
represent these?  Inevitably there is going to be a certain amount of car=
ving up=20
of non-IE roots, but I see no reason why this should be anything like as =
drastic=20
as in Volapuk, or even Esperanto.=20

> Check out Leo Moser's "Bahasan" project for a more interesting way to
> gather a truly international vocabulary (although until I see a more
> complete lexicon for it, I still hold reservations on the more common
> words).

Is there a web page for Bahasan?  I keep hearing mention of it.

> >  The use of the numeral or some other
> > determiner makes the number, well, determinable.
>=20
> Hm, yes.  In some way or another (if only by context), a language has t=
o
> distinguish between the following meanings of a noun ("tiger", fi):
> 1 tigers        tigers in general: "Tigers have stripes"
> 2 the tiger     the specific tiger previously referred to
> 3 the tigers    the specific tigers previously referred to
> 4 the tiger     archetypal tiger: "The tiger is not a gregarious mammal=
"
> 5 a tiger       some specific but previously unmentioned tiger
> 6 a tiger       any old tiger, but just one, and not in general
> 7 some tigers   multiple tigers, not in general or prev. ref. to
> 8 # tigers      # tigers, not previously referred to
> 9 this/that t.  one specific tiger, not previously referred to
> 0 this/that t.  one specific tiger, prev. ref. to, w/ two t.s compared
> 1 th(e/o)se t.s several specific tigers, not prev. ref. to
> 2 th(e/o)se t.s several specific tigers, prev. ref. to, w/2 grps comp.
>=20
> That's off the top of my head; there may be more.  Note that there are
> some formations in English which have distinct meanings; this can also
> be true of this lang, but you should be aware of it.  Now.  1 and 4 are
> sufficiently uncommon that they should probably use some adjectival
> construction.

I disagree.  1 and 4 are semantically the same, I think.  They both basic=
ally=20
refer to 'All entities in the universe classified by the name "tiger".'  =
An=20
indefinite NP covers it quite nicely, say: 'tigre'

>  The unmarked form should represent 2/3 (which can be
> conflated because context would distinguish them), since that is by far
> the most common, _imho_*.

Agreed.  We already know they're tigers because we've already mentioned t=
hem, and=20
we already know how many there are for the same reason.  So it's a defini=
te NP of=20
which the number is already clear from context: 'tigre'

>  Note that 5 and 6 aren't quite the same
> thing: 5 "a tiger bit me", 6 "the circus needs a tiger".  I _think_ you
> can get away with unmarking 5-7 completely (except for number if
> relevant)... but I think you need some (optional) way to disambiguate
> these in certain cases.

The only need for disambiguation seems to me to be in number. =20

In 6 if you really need to specify one tiger, you say 'un tigre'.  If you=
 only=20
need one but will make do with three, say 'tigre'. =20

In 7 say 'tigre' for any old number of tigers.  Of course it could mean '=
all the=20
tigers in the universe' but people will probably guess you don't mean tha=
t. =20
Otherwise 'plure tigre' to specify more than one tiger. =20

In 5, if you are walking through the jungle and you notice a tiger is abo=
ut to=20
attack you, shout: 'tigre'.  If you want to let your colleagues know that=
 it isn't=20
that serious and you're not being attacked by the combined forces of all =
the=20
world's tigers, shout: 'un tigre'.  Otherwise, run.

In 8, for n tigers, say: 'n tigre'

In 9:  '(un) tigre isto' or '(un) tigre illo'

In 10: ditto

In 11: Ah. Not sure yet. '(plure) tigre isto', '(plure) tigre illo', prob=
ably. =20
Depends how desperate you are to specify number.  Secretly, though, I'd r=
ather=20
have 'istos' and 'illos' because 'plure' is a bit cumbersome.   =20

In 12: ditto

Gosh, that was fun.  Thanks.

Regards,

Paul D.

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