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AUXLANG Home

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AUXLANG  November 1997, Week 1

AUXLANG November 1997, Week 1

Subject:

Re: esperanto (fwd)

From:

Paul O Bartlett <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 5 Nov 1997 15:06:09 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (153 lines)

On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, HOULDSWORTH GRANT SELBY wrote (excerpted):

> Paul O Bartlett wrote:

> > 2)  I regret that Zamenhof did not come out with something more like
> >     Ido in the first place;
>
>    Let me guess...your native language is: ENGLISH!!!

    Yes, it is, but what does that have to do with the price of eggs?
My point was not that Ido is "more like English" -- I do not require
that an auxiliary language be merely recoded English.  (If it were, just
junk the auxiliary and have everybody learn English, which is light
years ahead of Esperanto these days, anyway.)  I just think that Ido
made a start on cleaning up some things that could have been done better
in the first place, so that when the language was fixed in its base, as
it was in 1905, some of the later carping would have had little basis.

> >     I do think that Esperanto could have been
> >     more consistent and more efficient to begin with;

>                                                           I'm not
> sure what you mean here.

[following sentence transposed from above:]
>                        The way some words begin as nouns, others
> as adjectives etc, the start-POS determining the POS transforming
> affixation...ktp.

    This very point is one in which I regret that Esp-o was not more
consistent in the first place.  And lack of consistency cuts down on
efficiency of use.  For example, some primary adverbs have the '-a=FD'
ending, but not exclusively so, and it is also found on a few
prepositions and at least one conjunction.  More consistency means
better efficiency, in my book.  More consistency in transforming
"starting roots" to other parts of speech would have made things more
efficient as less burden on the memory.  (As would a slightly better
affix system, so that, for instance, the affixes '-aj-, '-ism-',
'-ist-', '-uj-', '-um-' would not have been semantically overloaded.)

>    Consistent - EO seems pretty consistent to me.

    I am not making the foolish statement that Esperanto has no
consistency.  I just think it could have had more if it had not been
frozen quite so quickly in 1905.

> >    and I think the
> >     supersigned letters were a colossal blunder [...]
>
>     Highly arguable, both ways. We've already seen several (rather
> tedious) name-calling flame wars on this, and I think everyone is
> very aware of everyone else's opinions. In other words, I don't
> want to get involved in another argument.

    Neither do I.  I was merely stating my opinion.  However, if I start
using them in email and newsgroup postings (according to the ISO Latin-3
standard), I don't want to hear any bitching from Esperantists who whine
that they cannot use them.  A standard and the technology already exist,
even if Esperantists have to spend some money to make use of them.  (I
have them.  Why don't others?)

> > 3)  Nevertheless, I think that some of the constantly recurring
> >     criticisms of Esperanto are of less moment than the critics
> >    think.

    The criticisms that I have encountered most frequently:

1) Adjectival concord.

    Despite its occasional value to poets and the unscrambling of
involuted sentences (which could simply be rephrased in most instances),
I think this one is more or less a wash.  I think the language would be
better off without it, but I can live with it.

2) The '-j' plural.

To me, this objection is simply petty and not worth further
consideration.

3) The supersigned letters.

I have already stated my opinion on this one.  Yes, they can have some
value, but I consider that they cause more trouble than they are worth.

4) 'Kaj' for "and."

So petty as not to be worth the effort to spit on the objection.

5) The 'mal-' prefix.

Another objection which I think is petty and not worth consideration.
To non-European peoples, 2), 4), and 5) are irrelevant, anyway.

6) The accusative '-n' morpheme.

I don't like it, but I can live with it.  It does have some positive
uses.

7) The '-in- feminine affix.

As you point out, they really are not used all that much in terms of the
whole language.

> > 4)  Chewing over the old soup of history and personalities is pointle=
ss
> >     and distracting [snip]
>
>    Nothing but aggreement here.  [...]

    I for one am sick and tired of hearing about the Delegation.  We
can't go back and rerun history.  Where are we now, not where were they
then?

>    Personally, I will follow Tolkien's advice to 'back Esperanto
> loyally'. This is not because it is 'perfect', as this particular
> adjective seems to be meaningless, even within a context.

    The point about "perfect" is well taken.  There is no such thing as
a "perfect" language.  Personal preference muddies up the waters.  One
man's "perfection" will be another's "fatal flaw."  (As for Tolkien's
recommendation, he was writing within the context of his time.  Who
knows what he might have thought of later languages?)

>    An international language (preferably for the world) is,
> IMO, an absolute necessity.

    I don't know about "absolute necessity," but I favor it strongly.

>                             However, it may not actually
> be a possibility. If it IS a possibility, then Esperanto is now
> the ONLY potential realisation of that possibility.

    I opine that it is a possibility, at least to some extent (I rather
doubt that all the world's people would ever come to know it), although
I would not hazard a guess as to how probable it is in my lifetime.  But
I remain to be convinced that Esperanto is the "only" viable candidate,
at least in the future.  I am not a true believer in the One True
Religion of Esperantism -- nor in any other.

    However, if in some sense or other Esperanto were "the choice," I
could live with it even if I don't like it.  For that matter, I could
live with Volap=FCk, if that were the choice.  It is not important that
everybody be happy.  It is only important that enough people agree on
something.  But I would say that such a miniscule fraction of the
world's population has chosen Esperanto that I hardly consider it a done
deal.

Paul                             <[log in to unmask]>
..........................................................
Paul O. Bartlett, P.O. Box 857, Vienna, VA 22183-0857, USA
Finger, keyserver, or WWW for PGP 2.6.2 public key
Home Page:  http://www.access.digex.net/~pobart

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January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
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August 2002, Week 3
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April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
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March 2002, Week 1
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February 2002, Week 1
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January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
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December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
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November 2001, Week 3
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November 2001, Week 1
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October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
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April 2001, Week 1
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March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
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February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
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December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
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November 2000, Week 1
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October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
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October 2000, Week 1
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September 2000, Week 3
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March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
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March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
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December 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
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November 1998, Week 1
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June 1998, Week 2
June 1998, Week 1
May 1998, Week 5
May 1998, Week 4
May 1998, Week 3
May 1998, Week 2
May 1998, Week 1
April 1998, Week 5
April 1998, Week 4
April 1998, Week 3
April 1998, Week 2
April 1998, Week 1
March 1998, Week 5
March 1998, Week 4
March 1998, Week 3
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March 1998, Week 1
February 1998, Week 5
February 1998, Week 4
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February 1998, Week 1
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December 1997, Week 5
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March 1997, Week 4
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March 1997, Week 2
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February 1997, Week 1

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